S02E07: What Keeps Production Schedules Rolling

Sam and Matilda dig into their attempts at time management, and how rolling schedules work, or don't work, for them.

Next week is all about income diversification - how do you expand your income opportunities, without adding a ton more work to your plate?

Where to find Sam and Matilda:

SAM IG: @sammowrimo

Website: www.samantha-cummings.com

Book to start with:

Curse of the Wild (Moons & Magic Book 1) https://amzn.eu/d/3QHym3m

Most recent book:

Heart of the Wolf (Moons & Magic Book 2) https://amzn.eu/d/4HecH3a

MATILDA IG: @matildaswiftauthor

Website: www.MatildaSwift.com

Book to start with: https://books2read.com/TheSlayoftheLand (book #1 of The Heathervale Mysteries)

Most recent book: https://books2read.com/ButterLatethanNever (book #3 of The Slippery Spoon Mysteries)  

Mentioned on the show:

JOIN THE PEN TO PAYCHECK DISCORD: https://discord.gg/w7BjxmeXfF

4thewords: https://app.4thewords.com/

Word Tracker app: https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/word-tracker/id1541495523

Toggl Track app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.toggl.giskard&hl=en_GB

Transcript:

Welcome to your next step of the Self Publishing Mountain.

I'm Matilda Swift, author of Quintessentially British Cozy Mysteries.

And I'm Samantha Cummings, author of Young Adult Books About Magic, Myths and Monsters.

I've written the books, changed their covers, tweaked their blurbs, tried tools from a dozen ad courses, and I'm still not seeing success.

Now, we're working together to plot and plan our way from barely making ends meet to pulling in a living wage.

Join us on our journey where we'll be mastering the pen to snag that paycheck.

Hello and welcome to Pen to Paycheck Authors podcast.

I'm Matilda Swift here with my co-host Samantha Cummings, and we're here to write our way to financial success.

We're two indie authors with over a dozen books between us, and still a long way to go towards the quit the day job dream.

If that sounds familiar, listen along for our mastery through Mis Steps Journey.

Each week, we cover a topic to help along the way.

This week's topic is time management for rolling production schedules.

It's quite a mouthful.

Before that, what are your wins and whinges of the week?

Okay, I'll start with wins.

I am gonna count this as a win.

I've had a really busy weekend, but in a good way.

I talked about this in my newsletter that I sent out this weekend about how I'm kind of living my best author life in that I'm doing things, like social things, that make me feel like I'm living a good life rather than just being tied to a computer.

So I went out to the theater on Friday night with my sister to see Dear Evan Hansen, which I love the music of, but the story I hate, but the music's really good, so it was really fun.

And then I went out to the ice hockey last night with my boyfriend, which was so fun.

Very off-branded.

So fun, I know I'm not a sporty girl at all.

I don't like watching sports, but I love ice hockey because growing up with Mighty Ducks means that you can't not, like I'm just obsessed with Mighty Ducks.

So I just pretended that I was watching them and it was so good.

Teenage ice hockey, but I think grown up ice hockey is going to be too scary.

I really just want Joshua Jackson to play ice hockey as a teenager.

Yeah, I just imagine that they're all him.

And also like every time like people bash, I'm just like, is the bash brothers?

And yeah, no one should ever take me to an ice hockey game.

I really get into it and I like doing all the chants and I scream and yeah, it's the best.

It's kind of like a pantomime for me where I get to play a real human being.

What a internationally relatable reference you've made there.

I can't even describe a pantomime, but yeah, I basically just like jokingly pretending to be a human being, putting on the performance of a lifetime.

Yeah, so I really enjoyed it.

And as soon as I got there, because I haven't been to watch ice hockey.

This is such a rambly story.

I haven't been to watch ice hockey since I was a kid and had been wanting to go for ages.

So decided to go.

And I knew as soon as I walked in, it was my new obsession.

And now I plan to go all the time and wear the shirt.

How about that nice crisp air when you go ice skating?

Yes, it's because you can go on ice skate there as well.

And at the end of the match, you could go on to the ice and skate with the team.

Which, yeah, I didn't.

Like anyone could.

Yeah.

If you had to do an ice skates, I think you could just go out with them.

And give them the chance that they could see you and you're good enough and they'd be like, come join our team.

You're amazing.

I mean, that's what I, next time I go, that's what I'm expecting because there is a women's division.

And I'm like, I put me in pads coach.

I could play, I could play that.

Yeah, so that's my new obsession.

In terms of other things in life, it's like a whole five minutes recap on my I Suck You obsession.

My writing is going great.

I'm currently at the end of the book that's being published later on this year.

And yeah, I'm just writing the ending and it's going so well.

All of my beats are like beating.

It feels like it's exactly what I want it to be.

And I love the creativity of writing and I love doing my little writing sprints.

And I haven't done it for a while.

So it's like a nice place to be rather than just going over and over old words.

Yeah.

And I also today contacted a book shop to see if I could get my paperbacks stocked.

If you can follow me.

That's so exciting.

There is a, somebody who's trying to open up a bookshop in Liverpool, used to probably send me this.

The Whirl, you can't call it Liverpool.

I know, the Whirl, sorry.

Well, in the account, she does herself say Liverpool, that she's based in Liverpool.

So it's a, yeah, it's a, like a, I think it's called Happily Ever After.

It's a fantasy, like, Romancey Fantasy Bookshop.

And yeah, somebody who has read my book, so like one of my readers and stuff, she had gone to visit and I said, I was really excited that she was going because it looks so cool.

And she was like, oh yeah, you should see if they'll stock your books in there.

And I thought, yeah, like why haven't I already thought about that?

So I contacted them and I'm waiting to hear back.

And that feels like, I know, it feels like a really big, weird step to take and obviously like all my decisions, just off the cuff.

I know that that's something that I'm going to be doing in the future, so I'll just do it right now.

My only whinge is that I'm so tired, I feel like my face could fall off and my brain could fall out.

And yeah, I don't know how I am.

I think I might be dead.

That's how I feel.

I think I might be dead now that I've not noticed it.

It's a tough state to be in.

Yeah.

And I just feel like I'm a zombie walking through the world.

Yes, that's my whinge.

I'm going to start with a whinge because I feel like I'm normally very wind-focused, and I am so deep in the whinge right now.

And it's not even a real whinge.

It's just that this is the phase of writing I'm in where...

And we're going to talk about it today because I got a book due into the editor on Wednesday, and I'm sure I said this in my last book, and I'm sure I said it wasn't going to be a case for this one, but it is in that it needs a lot more work than I thought it was going to need, which I think is something that maybe I always say.

I can't tell.

It's one of those like, you know, when you have a baby and your brain forgets how hard having a baby is, and then you have another baby, you're like, why did I forget this?

I'm sure that's the thing, yeah.

Neither of us know that, but yes.

This is what people say.

I've heard it on TikTok.

I think it's the same with editing books, that you forget how hard it is to edit a book.

And then you think next time, oh, yeah, I did that.

That was 100%.

Yeah.

So yes, so I'm at this age where this book is much, it needs so much more work than I in my head imagined it would need.

Because I remembered writing it, I remember being really impressed at myself.

Part of the problem with this book is, it kind of wraps up a three book arc.

Again, here's another reason that I hadn't anticipated.

I need to think about this before.

It wraps up a three book arc, so it brings together a lot, a lot of threads, and it's just too complicated.

It needs the whole book in your head all at once.

And by the time I got to the end of it, I'd figured out some things that I hadn't seeded in the right way, or hadn't prioritized the stakes in the right way.

At the beginning, it starts with three different vague stakes.

And then once I finish, it's like, oh, I can maybe bring one book more.

And so I'm having a back and very much rewrite it, which is fine, but I just hadn't planned for it.

And also, I'm a procrastinator.

So even if I had planned for it, I wouldn't have used the time I left, and I would have just been in that same position and still been tired this week.

So I think I want to try and fix that today in our discussion, that my terrible ability to plan my own life.

But I also want to whinge about it and just say, I'm so tired.

I was thinking about this week that I have worked three full days, like Friday, Saturday, Sunday, every waking hour of the day is like either editing or consciously taking a break from editing, like having an hour, you know, just on the sofa watching something, just shut my eyes, whatever.

Apart from that, just long, long, long days of editing.

And then every evening this week, I haven't done like I haven't gone on my hobbies, just been editing.

And so I've worked more than my full time job, but quite a long way.

And I'm just thinking, why don't I have a second full time job?

I'd be so rich.

And I'd be less tired because I wouldn't be doing much.

And it's not that I don't want to do that, obviously, but I just feel at the moment like I'm putting so much work in, and I'm not yet at the stage of getting the benefits out.

And it feels like, you know, when you start eating really healthily and like exercising well, and you get to the end of the first day, and you're like, well, I've eaten today salads, and I've been on like a long walk, and I've really moisturized and like, and I just look the same as I did at the start of the day.

That feels insulting.

Why did I just magically transform?

And it's just because it's just one day.

So I'm trying to keep that perspective of like, it is just, this is the this is a tough stage at the beginning of I've got to say a marathon.

I've not run a marathon, but they look too hard for me.

Again, here's the name of one of the related metaphors.

Metaphors we have experience with.

I do know some of the metaphors in my writing.

But yes, so that very long rambly, again, more rambles today, rambly point?

Did I have a point?

Maybe?

I'm very tired.

I think that's why I'm so not told how to fight it out.

Do you have a win?

I absolutely do have a win in that I met up with someone from our Discord, which is so exciting.

And I think that feels really good that I say I made time for nothing this week.

I did a writing session in the library because I like to try and get out and do something different.

And I met up with a writing friend there.

So I had a little bit of whispered conversation, but it was nice to see a human being.

I went out to my writing group where we just sit and write in silence as well.

So I did a little bit of silent socializing.

And then I also actually spoke to someone.

So we had a very long, like very, like, you know, like a healing conversation, where it's like, oh, it's everything that I'm thinking about and everything that I'm worrying about and all the things that I are top of my mind that I can't talk to anyone else about that everyone else would just look at you like, I, I don't know what Facebook ads are.

I got to have a conversation about that.

So that was fantastic.

And it was another cozy author.

And we had just chatted a little bit in the Discord and I realized that she lived near me.

So I thought why not meet up and we met up in the most beautiful village, I think in all of England, which where the bronchades grew up, which is called Howarth, which the bus there goes past my house.

So it's about 20 minutes from my house.

So I should go there all the time.

But it's almost like too beautiful.

But it's a nice place not to go every weekend.

But we met up in a very nice cafe there.

I wrote a bit before we met, I wrote after we met, met my writing goal, but also had a couple of hours just to eat very nice cake and chat.

So that was an absolute delight.

And if anybody else would like to meet more writing friends, come into our Discord.

The information is in our show notes.

It is so nice to be in there and just have everyone's questions answered and feel like you can moan about something you need to.

You can reach out to people delightful.

Yeah, agreed.

It is a very nice place to be.

I guess after we've like complained and complained, let's just get into talking about something that we're going to complain about even more.

This week's topic is all about rolling production.

So what is a rolling production schedule and what specific time management tools do we need for it?

Oh my god, my mouth.

Oh, I forgot today we're going to have our conflict of pronunciation of schedule and schedule.

So, oh yes, what did I just say?

You said schedule, that's what you said.

Schedule.

Just to give a fully international interpretation.

So I'm going to say schedule.

I could never.

So yes, rolling production schedules.

I have previously tried to set one up on kind of like grounds or holds because I've got too far behind.

And what I want to have is that I'm, say it's a three book series, I'm starting on the first three books, which is where I am now.

I've written the first draft of book one.

I set that aside for a bit when I write the first draft of book two.

And then I set that aside while I then do some edits of book one.

And then I set that aside, or set the editor while I can be the first draft of book three and interweave them at a different stage of every book.

So that hopefully we've got one, two and three going.

At the moment, I obviously because I've been prepping for a release and I do not have time to actually write an edit book a month.

I'm obviously getting further behind that schedule.

So I'm currently working on the edits of book three to go to the editor on Wednesday.

And then after that, I've got my edits of book two back.

So I'm going to do my proofread and last go through over the weekend next week.

And then I'm going to start book four.

But obviously, I should really be further ahead of book four to have it kind of keep rolling.

But I just haven't had the time I wouldn't be able to get books once in a month.

So it's, I want to figure out like a long term, useful production schedule to keep things rolling.

One tricky thing I have found definitely with having a rolling production schedule for three books in a series is that I have people three in my head at once.

And I'm mixing them up.

Yeah, I'm just trying to like remember like, have I mentioned that character already?

And obviously, you know, I've got the copies on my computer so I can go and check and see and also because I've cut things out.

So sometimes I have mentioned a character in book one and then I've deleted them and they don't come into book two.

I find it really useful having this look on same time in some ways, because when I get to book three, and I want to have mentioned something in book two, I still got time to add that.

And then, you know, book one only came out last week.

So until then, I could add things into book one that I've mentioned in book three.

So it's making things feel very interconnected.

I all the characters are top of mind.

So for me, I think it makes my writing better, but it makes my quality of life worse.

Yeah, I don't even know how, I don't know how you're doing it, because that to me is just insanity.

Like I get it.

In some ways, I think like, I do think my brain works in the same way, where I can hold on to a lot of information at once, but I have to have little like breaks in between, and that would just slow me down.

And you're like powering through, which is probably going to end up destroying you.

But I definitely, yeah, I definitely, I benefit from having like days off, and that will probably break up the flow of, and also just, it just sounds like a lot.

I think I wouldn't want to keep doing it, like aside from having a rough release of a new series.

Yeah, I think part of what's making it so busy, is like just having a day job.

So I, there's a limit to what I can do after work, where I finish work and I'm already tired.

I can add a couple of chapters, and I've probably scheduled, if it's a lot of work, three chapters, if there's less work, it's four chapters.

And these are short chapters, there are a thousand words each.

And then get a bigger chunk on the weekend.

But there's a limit to physically how much time I can spend on things.

And if I'm getting re-attired, you know, during the week, I'll have to take a day off, or if I get ill, I have to take some time off.

So, you know, there is physically limited time in which I need to achieve quite a lot in the time I have.

I don't, I definitely don't want to continue this space.

It doesn't feel good.

And it doesn't feel like it's going to keep benefiting the work.

Like I think I, my, my, this is partly why I think the drafts are needing a lot more work than I, than I thought they would, is that I think I have written them in a more tired state, in a more like frazzled state.

And so I haven't had the brain and space to like tie up as many things as I've gone through the book.

Like normally, maybe I'd go back and edit something a bit in and like make something make sense, but I've had to just drop it and know I'll come back to it.

Which for me, I think part is when it works because my books are small.

So this is a series of books where really three books of mine probably add up to more books of yours.

So I've got the paperback here.

It's very cute and tiny.

And it's this book, I think it's like 40 or 41,000 words.

And book two, I think is 42 and book three is probably about 40.

So they are short.

They're very dense.

I think I'm really trying to see that as positive.

Like I really like books where you kind of feel like you're immersed in a in a world even if you only read a few pages.

I like that.

So the books are short, but they don't, I think they feel particularly short.

And so I just get to kind of have this intense burst of thinking about them and I get to tie a lot of things together.

But yes, it is very tiring.

I think one of my problems is that if I gave myself more time, I would not use it well, because I am a procrastinator.

Yes, me too.

And I know the minimum amount of time that I need to do something.

And then I'll be like, and how about a little bit less?

Yeah.

My problem that I've noticed recently, like when I had my epiphany last week or the week before, when I realized how time works, which is something that I'm going to reference a lot and never be able to explain, is that I forever underestimate how much time things take.

And this is just like in my life in general.

I'm always like, I always think things can take a lot less time.

And like when I go to places, I always think that I'm going to get somewhere in two minutes when it takes ten minutes.

I'm forever late to work even though I only live, I'm going to say it, I live three minutes away from work, but I don't live three minutes away from work.

I live five to six minutes away from work, like on a good run.

But I always think like, oh, I only listen to one song on the way to work.

That's just because I've like skip a lot until I get to a song.

So like, my understanding of how time flows is just wrong.

And I realized that when I started editing this book in January, and I thought, oh, I'll be able to finish editing this book by mid-Feb.

No, no, no, no.

I also hadn't even finished writing the book.

Could you, like in a world in which there's like, little gun to your head, could you have done it?

If I didn't have a full-time job, yeah.

If I could have been doing more hours during the day, but...

What if someone like, kidnapped Juno, and was like, you won't give your drug back until you finish this book?

Would you have given it six weeks?

RIP Juno.

I feel like I wouldn't do it.

I still wouldn't be able to do it.

I actually feel like it would-

My problem is the opposite.

Like, I think some people have a like, it takes as long as it takes feeling.

And I'm like, it takes as long as I have.

We're not healthy, and it means that I can set myself two weeks, regardless of how much a book needs doing.

And I'm like, well, I will just work more.

And now I feel like I'm gonna wake up and like my head won't turn, you know?

I'm in that sort of like aching phase.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I may have been able to do it because I did originally have a much shorter turnaround time for this book, and I've pushed the publishing date.

And I probably could have done it.

I maybe would have taken a day off work, because I've done that in the past and just had like a day where I blitzed a lot of stuff.

So I potentially could have done it, but I think that it would have made me not like this stage that I'm at now, which is knowing that I've got a little bit more time.

It actually feels so much better to think like it was it was like a weight off my shoulders when everything went wrong and my editor couldn't fit me in.

And my first reaction was, oh, like, oh, no, what the hell am I going to do?

And then once I figured out how it was going to like how to fix it, I realized that was the best thing that could have happened, because it feels so much nicer.

And maybe now, maybe I think that it's actually like easier, but it might not be.

It could be that I'm still completely delusional.

I'm thinking that I'm going to finish this with time to spare and be like, have a few days on either side where I just like have nothing to do.

But right now, it actually feels like this time is the right time in this part of the process, like maybe.

I can't imagine that feeling.

How do you, are you naturally a procrastinator?

Like, do you ever plan things?

Oh, no, I do.

I do think at the last minute.

But if you know you've got loads of time, why aren't you just like leaving the book until closer?

Because I actually physically don't think.

I think that the time that I've got really is the time that it's going to take.

Yeah.

In a perfect world.

I could procrastinate, but it would just be to my detriment.

I know, but I've got this great ability to, when I decide to do something, like I can procrastinate so many things and leave so many things to the last minute.

But if I deem something important enough, I can make that thing, like the one thing that I do.

And I'm really good at sticking.

If I make a decision about something, I've always been like this, even as a kid, like if I make a decision about something, I will stick with it forever.

And it's a detriment sometimes, because it means that I will just like, you know, like cut off my nose to spat my face.

If I decide that like, I'm gonna bleach my hair and color it.

But I could just not do this anymore, because it takes hours.

But because I, yeah, it looks really cool.

But because I decided when I hit 30, that I wanted to do that and be cool forever, now I have to, because if I don't, everyone's gonna be like, just have your natural hair.

And then like, I cannot, no, no.

It's just like really silly things like that.

Like, I've made the decision, I'm gonna do it.

And with this book and with writing in general, I made the decision to be a writer, and now I have to prove to everyone that I can.

Maybe that's it.

Oh.

I'm just-

I think, to be fair, I think a lot of people are in this because they are the sort of proof you can do it.

Because I think, I think what I said today, I was like, I think I only actually am really, really drawn to writing because it's so hard.

And like, especially mystery writing.

Like, I think I wouldn't like it if it were easy, because that's not interesting.

I like the challenge.

And I think the thing with writing is, you can always make it harder.

Like, you can get your books more complicated.

You could switch genres.

You can do translations.

And I think people who-

and this is not necessarily true of everyone, but I think a lot of people, if I think about people I know in the writing space, are people who actively enjoy challenge.

It's not that you're doing it hoping one day it'll get less hard.

You're doing it because you like the hard.

Yes, I do also like the hard thing.

I like to be the person who is doing like the impressive thing.

And I like to learn constantly and I love being busy.

I love being busy.

Yeah.

I also-

I think I'm sometimes turning the energy the wrong way.

I turn the energy to like, I dare to make myself uncomfortably busy.

Yeah.

And at which point to find-

That's what I mean.

It's a detriment when you decide that you're-

when you decide you're okay being busy, then it's-

I think it could maybe get a bit dangerous.

Like, I don't know, at what point will I be too busy?

Will it be when I'm-

when I've collapsed?

I don't know.

Yeah.

I didn't even hit that point.

Yeah.

No, I felt like it this weekend.

I definitely remember actually, my final was at university, this is a long time ago, but I remember that was like weeks and weeks of just no sleep and not eating well.

And I felt so wretched.

And like the worst I've ever felt in my life, like as a human being.

And I was like sleeping like 20 minute bursts, you know, and then waking up by like panics or just do some revision, and like walking around and keep my head very still.

So like all the thoughts didn't fall out.

And I was like, I don't want to live like that.

Whereas I think I am in danger of getting back to that.

And I want to kind of figure out our best system.

Yeah, so I'm trying to think of like what worked well about my morning production schedule for this.

I think it's good for the writing.

And it's been good to make it feel like I can kind of plan my year out and my schedule has been very knowable.

I think because I am someone who can just make something happen in the time I have, I can, and I that's not always the case, right?

So I've definitely added both like buffer weeks into my schedule to all of things like illness, which I previously hadn't and would like throw me right off.

Sorry, my cat's attacking me.

But I've got those in now.

And that's definitely mean that I don't slip behind, you know, I could, I could, right?

If I got really ill, I would slip behind.

But I've kind of affected enough for expected situations.

And that's been really good to like know that I can plan out to have books out one month apart has been really beneficial.

And to know my abilities well enough to kind of be certain of that has been good.

But I want to find a way to not not have to kind of be all or nothing.

Yeah, and it might just be that it's a temporary phase, right?

Because like I'm trying to do this and have a day job.

I think I'm really struggling at the moment is that I am not ever able to get into professional writing schedule, like as if it is a job.

When I am writing because it's either my evening or my weekend, I am already tired.

So I'm kind of battling that like will to be generous to myself and be like, Oh, have a lie in or Yeah, take a bit of time.

Watch like watch a TV show with like no must be productive must be professional.

And I'm I'm doing neither.

I'm just I'm spending the whole time telling myself off.

So I think that's definitely part of what I want to get in place about when a production schedule is like, now I've got the the role really, really, like I've seen the benefit, like I want to be able to have always something in the wings and have things at different stages.

So I'm not just been like, Okay, I finished this book, look around now what what's next?

Because I'm not like you, I haven't got loads of books stored up that I can kind of go and do something with.

Once I finished these books, we've got once I've finished this, I've got nothing else.

Like, I've got the proofreads of like two books and then nothing.

I've got a vague plan for book four.

And I've got a plan for super secret project that we'll talk about soon.

Yeah.

But that's it.

I yeah, and that feels scary.

Yeah.

And that's what's been good about the morning schedule, like knowing what's coming next, not having to think about it.

So I want to maintain the role and make sure that is in place.

But find a way to make my days more professional now.

Yeah, okay, if I know I have to get 10,000 words edited this week, I'm going to sit down on Monday for three hours between this time, this time, sit down as if I'm at work at my day job, at a desk and not move until it's done, rather than like, maybe I'll go for a walk.

No, maybe I'll make some food.

Oh, actually, I'm just going to sit down for a little bit.

And I just I lose so much time to make decisions.

It's an absolute waste of my time.

I have a very set structures to my day.

And maybe this is because I live with somebody else and I've got a dog.

So my time is very set.

And I like to think of myself as a free spirit, like just a floating puff of coloured hair just wandering around.

But actually, I'm very set to a schedule.

I said it like that.

And I think it helps me a lot because I have to cook dinner for somebody else.

I don't have to cook dinner.

I like to cook dinner.

So I cook dinner every night, basically.

That made me sound like I was like a slave in the kitchen.

I'm not.

The kitchen is my favourite place.

It has all the food and the drinks.

So when I get home from work, I will sit down for a few minutes and decompress because I leave the house to work as well.

So I am very like set.

This is my work time.

This is my home time.

So I get home and then I have to like, I'll cook dinner and I'll feed the dog.

And then after I've eaten dinner, and this is this is going to sound bad and watch a TV show.

I know I'm not watching TV.

It doesn't sound bad.

It sounds like you're going to watch TV.

But I've taken out the pinch of salt because you mentioned a lot of TV recently.

I don't know.

That is fine.

Like you need to have input.

And that is something I learned this week myself.

I don't have any input.

Like I've stopped listening to podcasts even because I don't want to get other things in my head that will distract me.

And that means that long term, I will not be able to continue.

You'll have no more ideas.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You have to.

Yeah.

Like I need, I do need, I'd like I want to stop watching TV when I'm supposed to be working, but watching TV like in the, in the times where I would always be doing like cooking or sitting down to eat.

Like me and my boyfriend watch a lot of TVs together.

We love watching TV and movies and stuff.

So that's like our time together.

But once we finish that, that's when my work starts.

Like that's when I'm like, what?

I'll get my laptop, do some work.

And then I'll work up until like maybe 10 o'clock ish.

So between like 8 and 10, that's the time that I get my work in.

So everything else is done.

And then I get to sit down and do my thing.

And then once I finish, I read and then go to bed.

So I feel like, like I have a, it's a, yes, it's like it is very nice to do all of this, like to do everything in this order.

And I do think that I benefit from leaving and going to work somewhere else and coming home.

Because I think if I was at home, I don't think I would find it so easy to then get up and start doing stuff, because I have to, like, I am up already and like already active.

When I would get work, like I would just stay sat in that chair and be like, well, I'll put some Netflix on or sit on my phone for a bit.

When I was working from home over lockdown, I did no work.

I didn't write anything.

I didn't do anything.

I really felt like I didn't do anything because I was like, I was just sat on the sofa.

So the sofa was where I sat.

I was like, I lived on the sofa.

And as much as I loved it, it was the worst time for me.

If I'm stationary, I will be stationary for ever.

I said, I need to keep, this was actually in my horoscope today.

I shall read it.

This is going to be like a weekly thing.

But I was about to say these words.

But you secretly write for yourself because it's so accurate.

You can't do it for someone else.

He said, sharks have to keep moving for survival, but you don't.

And I was about to say, but if I stop, I never start again.

If I sit down and I'm like Monica when she sits in the bean bag, like, hey, you ain't getting me up.

I'm down.

You know what, I was going to make a reference to like the laws of motion in the universe.

But you know what, a friends reference is actually much more relatable.

Friends, friends reference, everyone gets it.

So I, yeah, like my, my schedule is, is very set.

And I really like it, but oh my God, I'd love it so much more if I didn't spend seven hours working for someone else.

You know, like imagine.

But then I think having that, like, you know, as soon as you've got that time back, you know, people say they don't get more productive.

But I think that's my problem.

I think I would, I would not want to leave my day job until I was better at being productive on my days, and I was able to make a schedule.

And I don't know how much I'm just a real, like, in that way, my own worst enemy.

Because I'm like, I think I don't have names on my shoulder.

There's like just me and the devil on my shoulder.

And the angel's just like, out to lunch forever.

So I'm just like constantly fighting the urge to be like, oh, just pick your phone up.

We're like, oh, just do nothing.

It's so funny that you think that about yourself, because I see you as the opposite.

I really think that you are the person who's like getting it done.

I really see you as-

You and I talk the game.

Yeah, you do.

But you are moving forwards and you are, like, I really do feel like you have got it made, like a lot better.

I feel like I'm, even though my day sounds like very solid, I really feel like I'm floundering.

Maybe we're just really bad at seeing ourselves from what we are.

I think I, because I don't have a partner and I don't even have a doctor, I don't have to commute to work.

Like, I think I'm putting more hours in and proportionally getting less done.

So I feel 20 times more busy than most people, but I'm probably getting four to five times more done because I'm spending so much time procrastinating.

I'm not letting myself rest.

I'm not a good judge of like, I think rest is procrastination.

And I cannot judge what the difference between two is.

So, and that's fine.

Like that's, I'd have to be perfect.

I, and I've been kind of thinking, you know, a lot, I think we've talked about it, maybe of last year.

I'm aware of it and I, I'm working on it.

But I definitely want to work on it to the stage where before I was quitting my job, I was able to have a job like schedule in my writing.

I was not spending 12 hours at a writing desk to complete three hours of work.

Yeah, I recently, like, I think I've said this before.

I've definitely, we've definitely talked about this before, whether I mentioned on the podcast, I can't remember.

But over the weekend, obviously, when my schedule is completely different, I was always waiting till like two o'clock before I started work.

And I thought that that was like, oh, that's, that's fine.

But a few weeks ago, it started to feel like it wasn't fine.

Like I felt like I was wasting a lot of my morning, just doing nothing, like just waiting until two o'clock, because that's the time that I told myself I was going to start working.

It was like really stupid.

And over the last few weeks, or two weeks, maybe, maybe it's only been two weeks, I've decided to start working at like 10 o'clock instead.

So after I've done my morning walk with Juno, we've like potted around and argued whilst we were walking down the street.

Because even though she's a dog, she does argue with me with her eyes.

So then we get back and I'm like all riled up because I've just been fighting with my dog.

Yeah, fight with the dog, had breakfast, and then like basically started working almost immediately after like having a little bit of a morning time.

And it's felt so much better.

Shockingly, doing the work earlier in the morning is better than starting late because I was the same as you.

I was starting, I felt like I was working for a longer time but getting less done.

So I was starting work at two and maybe working till through to like six or something.

And I wasn't getting any further.

Like it wasn't like I was getting absolutely loads of work done.

And once I started doing it in the morning, working from maybe like 11, 10 or 11 till lunchtime.

So maybe like till two or three o'clock.

I feel like I've gotten so much more done.

And that's just like a shift in like maybe I'm just like I am better earlier.

Maybe I my energy levels are just better then.

And I've convinced myself that I'm an afternoon.

Yeah.

What happens if you try and write on?

So like say you start at 10, you write for six.

Does that just become less and less productive?

No, like I think I'm just as productive, but I'm just like tired and feel like I shouldn't have to do that.

So I get annoyed that I would start earlier and carry on working.

But also it just also means that at the weekend, I can plan to do things in the late afternoon, early evening, like go out and get a coffee or go to the shops or like go to the ice hockey.

And that's felt like a better life to lead.

Yeah, we just decided you should have you want to like do it long term.

Yeah, I definitely feel like I'm working on a very short term strategy right now.

And that like, but that's understandable.

And I will not start to finish like two in the morning.

But like, yeah, between then I've done, you know, procrastination to no end.

And I have achieved like, you know, I'll be editing slash writing like 6000 words in that time.

That's probably the maximum I can do in a day.

But I probably could have done it much less time if I had if I had to, especially like if I had got it in front of the evening, I'd be like, okay, I'm just gonna sit down, get this done and be on it.

But then maybe that's not true.

Maybe because I find a lot of my I'm a very like sprint writer.

So I will do a bit of writing and then my brain is like, I'm done.

You've you've squeezed squeezed all the juice out.

And then come back.

But I think in that time I'm procrastinating, but actually I'm just refilling.

How long do you leave between your sprints?

I'm not doing like sprint like time sprints at the moment.

It's just like, yeah.

And so I intended to be like quick and come back.

And then sometimes like, oh, I sat down somewhere else.

And then I'll come back a bit later.

It's even better, you know, that's partly why I kind of make my work time very compressed in terms of weeks, because if I know I've only got two weeks, like there is, there's a limit to how much time I can procrastinate because the time will physically, I do understand how time works, it will physically run out.

I can fit into that.

What was gonna say?

No, it's gone.

Oh, yes, no, I was gonna say, we've talked about this before, but I am using and absolutely still getting an absolute benefit from for the words, which is the number four and then the words, I will put it in the show notes.

It's you fight monsters, so you get a certain time to fight a certain monster and you get benefits and you're kind of on a quest, you have to collect all the things that the monsters drop to go and complete the quests.

So often if I want to take like a break, I will stop in the middle of a battle with a monster, knowing that I've got maybe like 20 minutes in the clock and I've still got to do a couple of hundred words.

Then I'll be like, oh, I've got to come back and finish that fight and defeat the monster.

So that's definitely helping.

And it's got a lot of, you know, gamification, but like very, it's you're the one responsible for it, which I like, I don't really like gamification with other people involved.

I've learned to like lead, take all the things.

I only want to beat myself.

So in this, it tells you how many words you've done a day, how many words in a project, how many months you defeated, how far you're on your quest, things like that, where you can kind of have that self gratification, I guess.

I'll put it in the show notes.

I recently went pro, and it's not an ad, it's not very expensive to go pro, but I found that I used it enough and found, and like wanted to have a little reminder to use it more to by paying for it.

So I think it's maybe something like 70 something quid a year.

So a huge amount, under a hundred dollars.

Yeah, that sounds good.

I've been using WordTracker.

I obviously can't use WordTracker for editing, but now that I'm in the writing phase, I'm back to using WordTracker, which I love because it shows you, you can put in how many words you need to write and what date you need to finish by.

And it will tell you how many words you need to write by the end of the day in order to meet the target.

And it gives you a little pie chart where it tells you what percentage you're on.

I love writing over the percentage.

So today, for example, I, if it's going to load, I think I've got like 174% of my target, which like, you know, and that's the kind of gratification that I need.

I love to see like that I've beat it.

Oh, I tell a lie.

Today was actually, I was 229% of my target.

So and I'll just show on the screen, which if like, if this video comes out at any point in time.

So you get like a nice little dashboard, which gives you like the little chart, and you can look at your stats to see like, where you're up to and how.

Let me, I'll put a link into it as well.

It's just called Word Tracker.

Nice and simple.

Good luck to be finding that.

I know.

And if it helps the icon, that little picture is a green typewriter on a blue background.

I think that does help.

Yeah.

And yeah, I really find this very helpful.

And I got this because when I was like, doing NaNoWriMo and stuff from when I used to use their website, they had that tracker on and that was basically the sole purpose I loved using the website was it told me how much I needed to write that day and told me what percentage I was up to and it gave me a little chart.

And I really like seeing a chart, it helps me, like it makes me feel good.

I also love my beat sheet, my physical beat sheet that I have on a wall.

It's a piece of A3 paper with all of my beats written on it in Sharpies and like split into acts.

And as I'm going, I tick them off.

And that is, it's just like the little things that spur you on, I think, and also it's just such a good way to see where I'm up to.

Because obviously when you're looking at a word document, you can see what page you're on, but like I can't visualize past that page.

I can't really imagine how the rest of, like how much more story is involved.

But seeing my beats written out is so much easier for me.

And when I get to tick off where I'm up to, and I can see myself progressing on this sheet, that is like, I couldn't do without it.

I really don't think I could, I wouldn't be able to carry on.

Because if I can't imagine the end point, I would just flail around.

Yeah, I use a beat sheet percentage as like a spreadsheet, and that really helps.

Because then you think, if you get to that point where you think, I'm not quite sure I'm at the right place in this book, it feels like I'm at the midpoint, but doesn't feel like lengthwise is just right.

And you can go back and figure out where some parts are too short.

And I know some people read it get old beat sheets, but I find for me, it just, you're going to reinvent the wheel if you don't, because you're so used to reading books of a certain structure.

You know, Western literature is only one structure.

If you decide to write, you know, the part before before the call to adventure as half the book, no one's going to get there because it's boring.

That's a terrible book.

That's not a narrative that we enjoy.

Even, you know, the most literary literature, if you look at it, you can find the beats in it because that's the way that our narratives form.

You know, you look at other forms of literature.

So if you look at, for example, like Chinese literature, it doesn't follow that at all.

And people can find it very difficult to read.

I find Chinese literature.

I really tried to read a lot when I was in Hong Kong.

I find it really hard because you're expecting something doesn't come.

Yeah.

And you don't want that to happen in your book.

So yes, I use that as I'm writing and editing.

I've also currently got my, on my fridge whiteboard, I've got the chapters that I need to do today.

I can cross them off, get a little gold star.

I was going to mention one other tool, in fact, while we're talking about this.

So I have just got an app called Toggle Tracker, Toggle Track.

And obviously, because it's cool, it's got no E on toggle.

So, you know, vows are the enemy.

So Toggle Track.

And I'm using that for this other project that I want to work on.

And I'm just trialing it.

And it's basically it's like a freelancing app.

So it's a freelancing time tracking app.

And you can either use it like press start and it tracks time, or you can just put in blocks of time, because I want to this is a different sort of writing project where I'm not quite sure how long things are going to take me.

So I want to be able to track and get a better sense of, oh, did the writing say take me longer than this book that I normally write?

And I think if I like it, and it works, I'm going to expand that to my own books.

And I think Sasha Black does this, right?

I think like she times herself and looks at her word counts and tries to always beat herself and get better.

And I think I've got enough moving parts working at the moment in my rolling schedule to want to improve my own experience of it.

So to make myself more efficient, to track the time I take and to maybe say, you know what, actually editing, it doesn't take you two weeks.

You think it takes two weeks, but if you were going to not die over it, you take three, and you wouldn't be wasting time.

Or you could take two, and you just have to procrastinate less.

So I think that's my next stage.

I really want to know what you're...

Maybe we'll talk about this another time, but I really want to know what your idea of procrastination is.

I want to know more details back in the day.

It's just like time on my phone, right?

It's just like picking your friend up and doing nothing.

Or I mean, definitely for me, I would say procrastination is like, you know, not even watching TV, but like watching, you know, stuff on YouTube.

Or doing some housework, which is...

Oh, yeah.

I'm seeing the housekeeper's job.

When she starts, she'll be...

she'll be like this.

Yeah, and I will, you know, do more housework when I've got more to do.

Not, not to a huge amount, obviously, that's, you know, coming off my baseline of next to zero.

But there will be there'll be more cleaning going on sometimes, and then sometimes up to zero.

But yeah, it's a lot of just like being on my phone or doing too much checking of things, like checking of like, Oh, how's my KDP dashboard looking today?

And like, how are my ads doing?

And have I had any book file downloads?

Like, how's my newsletters going for a circle of that?

It's like, I don't need to know every hour, I could just not look at it.

And yeah, but when I'm in the procrastination mode, it's like, Oh, let me just check, I'll just check these things, and then I'll feel like I've ticked that off and I'll get back to work, which is unnecessary.

Right.

Yeah.

No, I feel you on that.

Yeah, that is procrastination.

Can I ask you a question?

Are you planning on always doing rapid release going forwards, or is this just like a test to see what is your like, in your like future production schedule, what does the next year look like for you?

Do you have that kind of idea?

Do you have like a 12 month production schedule?

I've got this year planned out, but past like June, I think it's in Pencil.

Part of it is because I want to be able to be responsive.

I think it's a tip from Lin, a friend of the podcast, who was saying like just, you know, you can wait until you've got three or four and then use the numbers from that to decide whether you want to carry on the series or rip up sooner or longer, rather than to kind of commit yourself and your mind to a longer series.

And I like that flexibility in my calendar, just to kind of say, here's what I would be doing if I were going to continue to book six by the start of next year, if not then I've got this time free.

I think, I'm hoping, this book, this series, I will continue to six, at a minimum, because that's a good number to, if the readers are strong enough to kind of pay back on ads.

And that I want to try and get out within about a year, as in from the start of the series to the end of the series.

Okay.

It's interesting, I think, I think it's Heather G.

Harris, who is kind of more, she's more urban fantasy.

She does rapid release, but she'll take a big break between books and then rapid release, just to kind of build more momentum.

And I think that works when you're able to make more of a launch event out of something.

Yeah, she's really good at it.

Yeah, and she really has a fandom around it.

And we talk about Ellie Alexander a lot, and she had, and this is a storm publishing thing, they, I think, have kind of helped her with the schedule for the books she does with them.

She had books one and two out on the same day, and then book three out maybe a fortnight later or something.

And she's gonna have, it's a six book, like, complete series.

That's all coming out with in maybe six months, maybe a year, but the first few have come out very, very rapidly.

And she also has two continuing series with other publishers, and she's got the book coming out soon.

So it's interesting.

But yes, I think I think if I were going to start a new series, yes, I think to continue this new series, no, I don't see a benefit to it in terms of like my own personal sanity and ability to write that much and keep up with quality books.

Yeah.

If I were writing full time, I think I would want to see if I could get more books out a year.

Like this year, I think because I've I'd stocked some books up last year, and I kind of made some progress already.

I think this year, I'm hoping to publish six books, which is a lot.

Obviously, I published effectively no books last year, so it was kind of three a year.

But yeah, I would say like six books a year, probably a good number for me because they're short.

Again, like this is not saying that you should be doing this.

This is because they're short.

Oh, God, I could never.

But you know, I would say if you're writing a fantasy, like three of my books is one book.

So I don't have people write like four fantasy books a year.

That just seems like so much, so much.

Just word count.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I also think having faster releases of short books helps you keep that role.

Whereas if you're, if you're doing, you know, slightly further part releases or slightly longer books, you might write one book and then think, Oh, I've got like a 70,000 word book that is basically finished.

If I have to leave it to write another 70,000 word book, that's a couple of months that I'm not releasing that book.

And I'm just sitting on it before I come back to even edit it.

And then, sorry, I think because they're short, then they have a short turnaround time, relatively.

You know, I benefit from it, not feeling like I've got books just sat there, not earning money when they could be earning money.

Yeah, for me, because for me, it's completely different, because I've said this before, like I've got a back list.

How many books are in your back list that you want to publish?

Let me have a look at my post-its.

Let's see.

So I've got that one coming out, that one's next.

So not including these two, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, seven.

And then there's a series that I kind of want to relaunch, which is like a 14 book series, potentially.

Like that's the potential for that series.

It's like an epic series.

So yeah, like I've got, I have effectively could, like for the next five or six years, just work on the books that I've got in my production list now.

Oh my goodness, that is-

Which, I know that's crazy.

And I have like, I think this is because obviously for years and years, I was writing without doing anything with them.

And I've like just released like periodically, I just randomly put books out.

And so I've built up just like a lot of stories, but also just have like not, they're not all written, like a lot of those aren't written.

But I just know the books that I'm going to write.

I have my imagination is like next level, almost psychotic.

I can't explain like how many worlds exist in my head.

Like, I actually think that if someone studied me, they'd think that there's something wrong with my brain, because it's just weird up here.

It's not most of the thing because I have nothing in my head.

I know.

I have the most in my head.

Like, it does actually scare me sometimes.

But I have obviously put that to good use in that I write down every idea that I have.

And whilst I don't always develop every idea that I have, I've got like a really long list.

Like, that's just the books that I want to release.

They're not all the ideas I've had nor the stories I've started.

So, like, I am just like a very productive person when it comes to ideas because I'm, like, got this ADHD brain that never, never stops.

So, like, yeah, I like, I feel like I'm good to go.

But it's just for the longest time, I just thought that I had time figured out and then realized I didn't.

So I came up with a new production schedule, which I think is achievable for me.

And it feels like there's enough built into it that it's not going to kill me.

And it seems like it's going to like, it's going to be nice and means like two books a year at the moment.

That seems like the best thing that I could hope for with having a full time job.

So yeah, I feel like I'm just like, I'm set, but I'm not there.

Like I'm really on a cusp and it's really, it feels very strange.

I don't know.

If you suddenly became independently wealthy, and you stop work tomorrow, how many books do you think you'd be able to really see a year?

I would start with three.

At the moment, I can't, I don't know, because I haven't done this process enough times to know if it's repeatable, or I don't know how I would build on it.

I think three to start, but I would like to do four a year.

I think four a year is my ultimate goal, because four quarters of a year just feels nice.

That feels like it'd be a nice, rounded out process.

Would you save any to rapid release?

I would love to do a rapid release series, but I don't know.

I don't write short books.

I write ridiculous long books, I have to cut them.

I really struggle.

When I write, this is part of the process that I have to work on, because I definitely overwrite and edit down.

I would very much like to have a tighter writing schedule and be a lot better at sticking to my word count, because I always aim for like 80,000 words, and I always overshoot and get like 120.

So yeah, so really, I just love writing.

I just love the writing process so much, and I get really into it.

But I am an act to like dawdler.

I love dawdling act too.

It's my favorite thing.

I always overwrite act too.

But that is something that I need to work on.

But at the moment, I have my schedule is like, write a book in November and December, edit January.

And this isn't even like the same book.

I've never once done a, write a book and publish it in one go.

I've never done them.

So I've always worked on another book.

So if I write a book...

That's what the topic of today, rolling production schedules.

Exactly.

So this is how it's all kind of working.

So say like in January to...

I don't even know what I put on my list.

Like January to...

Wait, where am I?

June?

And I can't even read my writing.

But basically for the first three months of the year, I'd edit and then get it all set up to release and start editing the next book in May to release later in the year, and then write a book at the end of the year.

And that's kind of my processes.

Working on three books a year to release two, if that makes sense.

I really did not describe that very well.

But then I feel like you're going to get worse and worse because you have more and more books.

Yeah.

That you're not releasing.

But I know...

But like the books that I'm going to be writing at the end of the year are the ones that are on my list.

So they're not like new books per se.

But it just means that I've forever got a book that's next to kind of come into the process.

So I am at the moment in the process.

Like I've got the process set up.

I just have to do it, like have one go at doing it for a full round to see if it's working.

This is what this year is all about basically.

It's just doing this process that I've come up with and seeing if it's achievable, if it's comfortable, and if it can be built on.

That's where I'm at.

But I feel like I'm doing well.

I think we are in it.

Yeah, I think we're doing well.

I'm just so tired.

Yes.

Yeah, but I think that's it.

We'll revisit this because I think this is a good topic.

It's not like we're talking necessary about rolling production judge, or talking about the time management for it.

And really, it's not like the solution.

Like what are our problems with time management for this?

Yeah, I think we've both got loads of problems.

So good to have things to work on.

We love learning.

This is what we're gonna learn this year.

Love it.

Yes.

Yeah, do hop in the Discord if you've got some suggestions of how we can easily fix that.

But it cannot be, don't procrastinate or just write fast there because we are aware of these problems.

Don't tell me to don't write too much.

Yeah, don't tell me to cut my writing short.

Like I know.

Yeah.

Have you got anything else last thing to say on this topic?

No, other than the fact that I think we're both doing a great job and we deserve like champagne or something.

Yeah, I think good job us.

We're both working at our current capacity.

And that could only improve.

We all keep getting better.

But we are definitely both like, working as hard as we can right now, which is all we can ask for.

Next week, we have some quite different topics.

We talk about income diversification, which is another part of kind of professionalizing.

I feel like we've talked about this before, at least touched upon it.

And I think it'd be just youthful to check in and think where are we actually at in terms of making that happen.

I feel like I have made some progress before.

I kind of made a very pie in the sky, like imaginary list.

And now I've got some more concrete plans.

Do you have any initial thoughts on it?

No, I'm the same.

Like I would know that I had a little list of things that I could be doing to diversify my income.

I kind of felt like I was a bit scared to look at it again once we came up with the original list, because it felt like more of a job.

It felt way more like giving than receiving.

To quote friends again, having and sharing.

So it felt more like I was going to be giving up more of my time and not getting anything in return.

But I feel like I'm ready to look at it again now and flip that mindset, hopefully.

Or even just re-evaluate.

We don't have to do anything.

It's just like a touching in and thinking, touching base and thinking like what looks real estate from this now having thought more about my own schedule and more about where I want to get money from.

I definitely feel more like a concrete sense of like needing to diversify income.

I think previously when thinking about book income, it seems so far away from something that I would live on, that it was like, oh, this is my future self when I make millions from writing.

But that's, I don't want to be thinking that far in the future.

I want to be able to not have a full time job before then, and to kind of have different strands to it and think, what do I need in order to make that workable?

So yeah, I would like to kind of get closer to thinking about the practicality of that.

So next week's conversation will be a good chance to talk about that.

We need a question for our Discord.

So today we talked about time management.

In fact, that's a good question.

Time management tips from everyone.

What are your best time management tips and tools?

That will be the question in the Discord.

And hopefully people have just got some sort of magical fairy, they can lend me.

Yeah, if you've got, yeah, a genie, a lamp with a genie in it, or Bernard's watch would be also appreciated at this time.

Yeah.

Yes.

Any sort of magic really is appreciated for time management.

I don't want, you know, practical things like just look at your phone less, because that's not where I want it.

I'm going to say this right now.

I got into my car the other day and I actually said out loud to myself, I need magic to be real.

Like it was like a way to soothe myself.

I think magic needs to be real right now.

And then I just drove and then like just carried on driving.

It's when you're like, that's where I'm at.

You need to make a six minute journey through minutes.

I was already at work as I was in my parking space.

I actually, I might have been leaving work.

I think I was leaving.

I just had one of those days where I was like, I just need more.

I need something better than this.

I look so good in TV.

Like, I mean, we grew up watching like Sabrina Teenage Witch, and I just felt like that would happen to you at any moment.

And I still don't have magic powers, and it's just constantly frustrating.

I'm still waiting.

Just exponentially better life with it.

Yes.

Well, maybe next week.

Again, if anyone's got a thing from the discord, let us know your magic powers and how we access those would be greatly appreciated.

But also to come in for like, you know, we're chatting about like Focus of the Week.

Any questions you've got is a great group.

So it is in the show notes.

Do also like and subscribe to our podcast, Tell Your Friends.

I think that is, I think we've got some great growth recently from that, from the people sharing with their friends.

So if you see other writers on social media thinking, I'm stuck and I feel so alone, recommend this podcast.

We're trying to build a community of like writers who don't feel so stuck and alone.

So please do let them know there is, there are other people out here just chatting nonsense about that, that they might want to do and feeling very tired.

So we're both going to go now.

I'm going to do some more work.

I'm guessing you are similarly off to do something productive.

No, I'm going to read.

That is important.

Yes.

Yes, I've got some more editing to do.

So we will leave it here and tell everyone, thank you for joining us and goodbye.

Goodbye.

You've been listening to Pen to Paycheck Authors.

Stay tuned for our next episode.

And don't forget to subscribe to learn how to write your way to financial success.