S02E06: What Post Launch Marketing Is and Isn't

Sam and Matilda chat about what post launch marketing is, and what it isn't! 

Next week is all about time management and how rolling schedules for projects work, or don't work, for them.

Where to find Sam and Matilda:

SAM IG: @sammowrimo

Website: www.samantha-cummings.com

Book to start with:

Curse of the Wild (Moons & Magic Book 1) https://amzn.eu/d/3QHym3m

Most recent book:

Heart of the Wolf (Moons & Magic Book 2) https://amzn.eu/d/4HecH3a

MATILDA IG: @matildaswiftauthor

Website: www.MatildaSwift.com

Book to start with: https://books2read.com/TheSlayoftheLand (book #1 of The Heathervale Mysteries)

Most recent book: https://books2read.com/ButterLatethanNever (book #3 of The Slippery Spoon Mysteries)  

Mentioned on the show:

JOIN THE PEN TO PAYCHECK DISCORD: https://discord.gg/w7BjxmeXfF

Ellie Alexander’s Reality Writes podcast: https://youtu.be/0dEuazQn654?si=_b1S46fp3K5t-Mik

Paperfury: https://www.instagram.com/paperfury/?hl=en

Transcript:

Welcome to your next step of the Self Publishing Mountain.

I'm Matilda Swift, author of Quintessentially British Cozy Mysteries.

And I'm Samantha Cummings, author of Young Adult Books about Magic, Myths and Monsters.

I've written the books, changed their covers, tweaked their blurbs, tried tools from a dozen ad courses, and I'm still not seeing success.

Now, we're working together to plot and plan our way from barely making ends meet to pulling in a living wage.

Join us on our journey where we'll be mastering the pen to snag that paycheck.

Hello and welcome to Pen to Paycheck Authors podcast.

I'm Samantha Cummings, here with my co-host Matilda Swift, and we're here to write our way to financial success.

We're two indie authors with over a dozen books between us, and still a long way to go towards the quit the day job dream.

If that sounds familiar, listen along for our Mastery Through Missteps journey.

Each week we cover a topic to help along the way, and this week's topic is post-launch marketing.

But before that, what are your wins and whinjers of the week?

Well, we picked this topic today because I am launching a book this week.

So my wins and whinjers are very launch-themed.

So when I launch a book this week, and also extra win, Amazon sent me my author copies, like very, very quickly.

So I launched my paperback a couple of days before the ebooks, so I could get reviews up, which is also a win for me.

I've never done that before and have been that organized.

So fantastic.

And then I ordered the paperbacks right away and they arrived yesterday.

So my launch is on Wednesday and they arrived on Saturday.

Phenomenal.

And they look so cute.

Yeah, I feel so on it.

And I feel on it with everything in this launch.

It feels great.

My winjers, I've now got two more launches coming very quickly.

And I finished the books for those and I'm so tired and I need to sleep and I don't have any sleep scheduled for like the next several months.

So that is disappointing for me.

And lots of really I could do a whole podcast on wins and winches over this week.

Like really just it feels like a million things have happened.

And a lot of it to do the launch.

So it will kind of bleed into the rest of the podcast.

We'll be talking about that for the next hour maybe.

How about you, have you got any wins and winches this week?

I've got plenty of wins.

My win for today in particular is that I reached my editing goal.

I've still got a long way to go.

I say a long way to go.

I've still got a way to go on this book, but I wanted to get to this specific point by the end of this week.

And I worked so hard today.

And I've just literally been sat down at my computer all day working furiously because we in our Discord had challenged each other to finish our edits today.

And once I'm challenged, I was like, well, I'm not going to lose.

I'm like, I'm going to do it.

I'm not going to lose.

But it was so awful, the pages that I had to edit.

So I deleted whole chapters and I had to rewrite whole chapters.

And I just didn't like I physically don't have time.

And I was writing awful work, awful words, and like just staring at things and like, wait, what, what is happening in this chapter?

Why is nothing happening in this chapter?

So it's a bit philosophical, my writing session and my editing session today.

I that is definitely a whinge of this week.

I am so, so tired that I'm really looking to edit.

So I'm going to take the rest of the evening off after this and just have a relax evening to try and be more productive tomorrow.

Rather than just keep grinding myself from the ground.

That is not the way that you write a Cozy Mystery.

No, no, but I know you've lost, but I've won.

And I, yeah, that's obviously the most important thing.

I don't care that you're tired.

Of course, of course I do.

I feel, I feel that tiredness.

That's part of my whinge, but I'll talk about that in a second.

My other win is that I finally met up with my friend who is my book formatter.

We met up in Manchester yesterday and spent the day together.

I've known her for 10 plus years from the internet.

I've been working with her for the last three or four books that I've published.

So we've had like a friendship and a working relationship.

And then finally, we've had a real life like friendship and it was so good.

And we went to Manchester and I took her to some cute little places.

We finally went into, because I've never been into the John Rylan Library, which is crazy that I've never been in.

I used to sell scarves in there, like felted scarves.

It was, I walked in and just said instantly, I think I need to live here or work here.

It's so good.

So if you are in and around Manchester, definitely check it out.

It's free entry and it's the best.

It's a nice cafe as well.

Yeah.

I did an internship as an archivist there.

And I thought, oh, if only it's like a real viable job that I could do.

It would also be my dream come true.

I spent two weeks going through a poet's archives, trying to find out.

So basically, when you're an archivist, you're trying to like label all the information in someone's documentation.

And I was like looking to your postcards and be like, hmm, this says it's from Alan, and it's written in the style of Alan Ginsburg.

Could it be him?

And then had to figure out whether he would have written that, whether it was in the right place to do it, and it often was.

And there were like telegrams from Samuel Beckett being like, I'm not coming to that party.

Absolutely not.

And it was just a delight.

But it is not a very easy career to have to have to generally.

It's very hard to get jobs because it's small and not well paid.

But it was delightful.

But so fun.

Like when I'm dead, just to take it too far, I'm going to haunt that place like nobody's business.

I feel like as a ghost, I could spend a lot of time there.

So that's my plan for the future.

Any reason to get into the archives, that is fantastic.

Oh my God.

Yeah, I would love to.

So that was my day yesterday.

Yeah, I had a lot of fun.

My whinge of the week is that I am equally tired as you.

I had, I actually felt like I was suffering from exhaustion this week because I've been editing so much.

And on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, I was so tired, I literally couldn't do anything.

I was like a walking corpse.

Somebody at my office in my day job actually stopped me when I walked into the room and said, are you okay?

Because visibly, I obviously looked terrible.

And he just said that you clearly are not okay.

You don't seem like your usual self.

And I'm like the life and soul of the party at the office.

Like they can't, they literally can't work without me because I am the energy.

And without my energy, I know without the energy, everyone had a really bad week.

And I was actually like the person that kind of that stopped me asked me, like pleaded with me, Sam, will you please not do any work tonight?

Like, I think you need to rest.

And so I was like, yeah, that's fine.

I'm sorry.

I'll come back in tomorrow and I'll be better.

But that was like a really like strangely a nice thing for someone to say and notice because I sometimes just feel like I'll just keep going and it's fine.

Nobody can tell how tired I am.

But the fact that people could tell was a warning sign that I should take care of myself a little bit better.

So I'm going to try.

My other whinge of the week is just like exit energy levels for social media that have dipped.

Now that there's no longer a competition, not competition, but we were doing that whole challenge, the TikTok challenge.

And I love doing things like that where everybody's kind of sharing and there's a tiny bit of competition, even if it's just with yourself.

There's that tiny bit of competition to keep the energy and the excitement going.

And without that, I'm just like, I don't know what I'm doing anymore.

No one's looking, right?

No one's looking, no one's looking.

Yeah.

I don't mean no viewers.

I mean, like, there's no, there's no sense in which you're like, you've agreed something, it's voluntary.

And you're like, well, it's voluntary.

I'm tired and it's not going well.

Never mind then.

Yeah, yeah.

So I need to find that, the spark again and the enjoyment.

And I think that this week, I'm going to just give it a whirl and start going back to posting really fun, like the stuff that I was doing at the start of last month.

Was it last month?

I don't even know where I am.

The start of this month?

Who, I don't know.

Yeah, so I'm going to try and go back to that, just posting and having fun and trying to enjoy things without looking too much at the stats and everything.

So, yeah, it's just I've sort of done a similar thing.

So I've set up a second TikTok that I'm trying to have, like just a more like what you're meant to have, quote unquote meant to have on TikTok.

So just trying to follow like, would it would I get better numbers if I had a more systematic posting system that is more aligned with what people say will lead to higher view counts?

Because I really want to have a TikTok where I can just post a bunch of silly things like I want to have that.

So if I want to have that, I should also try having a business like TikTok just to see.

And I think I'm going to try and have like a little challenge in myself and do that for a month and see, does it does it work?

Or are the gurus lying?

But are they are the messages not applicable to me?

Or have I not taken enough time to really try and learn them?

But like, just to try out something.

Because I do really enjoy having like a silly TikTok.

I think it feels like a more playful space.

And one of the things I was talking about this week in our Discord was actually I want to be slightly more playful with the business.

So we talked a couple weeks ago about two weeks ago about having a low budget.

And then we suggested when we think about having a high budget, we're like, what if you had a million pounds as your budget?

And obviously, that was like, no, we can't do that.

The million pounds, you would just, you'd hire someone to do all the work for you.

That's not applicable to our lives.

But actually thinking about the million pounds was really helpful to me because I thought if I had a million pounds, you know, and I was like a trust fund baby who was just like, I want to publish some books and have some like, enjoy it, have some fun.

I would be way more playful.

I would try different fun things.

I would do things like your book box that just seemed like so much fun, but are so much work.

But I'd be able to pay for it to be done.

And I think at the moment my business is fine, but I do feel like the less playful I am, the higher the risk of burnout for me, because I think I like that creativity, but like business creativity.

So my day job, part of my role is like having, getting to have like lots of different projects and fingers at different pies and try different things.

And so I get to have kind of a fun, playful side, slightly play, but you don't mean like a side where I can suggest things that I'm not committed to actually doing, someone else has to actually go and do them.

So I get to a lot of like blue sky thinking.

And in my publishing business, I don't because I just don't have that much time and energy and anything I think of, I have to do myself.

So it was really useful to think about that, like million pounds idea.

And it has made me realize I do want to have some play in my business.

And if that's happening, like a silly TikTok that like, I think nobody really watched it.

I think it's going to have no, like Cozy Mysteries aren't really on TikTok as much as anyone else.

I'm like, if I look at my demographics for young people.

So I want to have a fun, playful space, which, you know, and then I will also try and have a business based on that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I sometimes have what I call a millionaire Saturday, where I pretend like sometimes I'll play the lottery on Friday night and I won't check my e-mails the next day until later in the afternoon to see if I've won.

Because I think when I go on a dog walk on a Saturday morning, I like to walk around town as though I've won the lottery and just have that mentality of thinking like, nobody knows, but I am actually now filthy rich.

And it's really, I never actually fully believe that I've won the lottery, but I pretend.

And it's just a really nice and playful way to, I think it just gives me a bit of energy because I walk around and I feel like I'm just literally swallowing, swallowing around.

I've got nowhere to be, I don't need to work.

Like the lady no kids meme, you know the little cartoon where she's like, I'm off to follow a goose.

Yeah, that's basically me.

And I go with my dog and like, I'll go and sit and have a coffee and sit outside the coffee shop and chat to like strangers as they walk past, as though I'm, you know, offering the peasants a slice of my time.

And it's so, it's insane, but it's so fun.

And I do think that there is, or there should be more space for that kind of thinking when you're doing this, because you should go onto social media and be able to post things that's just, that's just silly.

And it's just like, you know, I am, I'm just here having a good time.

Enjoy, enjoy what I've given you.

And I like that.

And I think that you should do that more.

Just be your millionaire self.

Coming back to the podcast, I can't remember what it was, but I mentioned it recently to you, that I listened to a podcast where some, there was a whole long episode that was really, really good, where someone was talking about like their great business strategies and all the work they put into this.

They put a lot of work in, but at the end of it, they were talking about the key to their success.

And they were like, oh, I'm independently wealthy.

And I was like, oh, obviously, this person works incredibly hard and they had some great strategies, but it felt like it made me reframe everything they'd mentioned because like, yeah, I would do that if I were independently wealthy.

I would be out here doing like fun things, building fandoms, if I didn't have to like go to the work and put the bins out.

Yeah, but I could bring more of that into my life.

Like I could bring more play and I need to find more way to bring play.

Like I've done things like the artist way before and tried to like artist dates.

And I do really feel like at the moment, I am grinding a bit too hard.

And we are talking about this kind of related topic next week.

So we'll come up with some strategies then.

But I definitely want to kind of keep recognizing that.

I think that is definitely an act to problem career wise when you've escalated things, but I can't let go of anything.

I'm only picking things up right now.

Oh God, I have to, before we move on, I have to, we'll have to read you the, the little star sign, whatever we call it in this.

Can't remember what this is called.

Horoscope, thank you.

And the thing that I keep getting is that-

So you're getting a daily horoscope while you're getting something delivered to you.

I've got an app, yeah, where I get a daily horoscope.

And it says today, and it said this a few times recently, your main challenge right now is to allow things of the past to fade, to allow the future to be born out of the ruins.

And if that, if that is not, and like one thing is becoming another thing entirely is the-

You think what your job is.

Yeah, so, and I read that and I think, like, I don't know, I know what it means and I do, I understand, I feel that.

I think I just, I feel that whole sentence.

And I can't imagine what the thing is that's growing because it feels too silly to think it's like a, as like a proper career in writing, but it's something.

And I feel like that's, that's the vibe is that we've got to, we've got to release the things of the past that have been holding us back and step into our millionaire author lives.

Yes.

If it's been a very rambly start to the podcast back, it's sort of because the topic today is quite big, and it sounds very concrete, but it's really covered a lot of things.

So I think hopefully it's beginning is kind of given insight into the ways in which the topic we're going to talk about isn't as small and discreet as it sounds.

So we're talking about post launch marketing, which sounds so specific, like, oh, here's a checklist, let's go do that, but what is post launch marketing?

How is it different to pre-launch marketing or other sorts of marketing?

What is it?

I'm glad I was, when I saw this, I saw you asking me the question.

And I thought, oh, how the tables have turned.

I am going to be as aloof as possible because I do think that, like we've just been talking about the whole millionaire mindset, I think the post book launch marketing is a different mindset to pre-launch.

And it's pre-launch is the temptation, it's the flirtation with readers to tell them all about, like this great thing that they're going to have in their lives.

And then post-launch is trying to convince them that they made the right decision.

But whilst also still trying, whilst having a secret affair on the book, because you're still trying to get the people in and flirting with them.

So it's like this, you have to split your mind into two, but they are also one.

And I'm so bad at describing these things, but to me, they make sense.

So it's-

It's really useful.

I definitely hadn't given enough thought to the side of it, of like, it's making people read the book once they bought it, right?

That's a big part of it.

It could just sit on your kindle forever and then nothing happens and no one's gonna read it too.

Yeah, which now you say, obviously I should have been thinking about this.

I don't know why I'm not.

We always come up with different things, though.

That is true.

Yes.

But yeah, but but I think it's also something like people talk about a lot.

And this is a good reminder of definitely think about that.

So it's about even the audiences that you think you've talked about it loads, who you think they've definitely bought it by now.

It's about making sure they read it and that they do more as a consequence.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's how how I see it, because I know that there was obviously all these processes that you can do, run ads to tell people that it's out, and make sure you're emailing people, send your book out to reviewers.

There's all these things that are like normal standard things that you would do, rather than just throwing the book away and moving on to the next thing.

But one of the things that I'm very aware of, and I don't know why, maybe it's because of my last couple of launches, I've felt like I have not thought about the fact that people buy the book but don't read it immediately, because I do that as well.

And I've recently been trying to go back through my backlog on Kindle, and everyone's TBR is ridiculously long.

I'm really trying to get to the books that need reading the most, so mostly like indie books that I've bought, and trying to not neglect them.

And it's made me realize, I wonder how many people bought my book who also have forgotten that it exists.

And so actually, funnily enough, one of the people in my Discord group, because I've written something about, I've been having a crappy sales month, which is fine, it happens.

It made her, I feel like I've guilted her into it, but it made her realize that she hadn't read the book.

Like she was like, oh, I bought your book and I haven't read it yet.

I'm going to pick it up tonight.

And she started reading it.

So that's just one example of me mentioning it in a virtual room, and somebody thinking, oh yeah, I completely forgot.

So that was like a strange, like that just really well-timed reminder that you can't stop talking about the book.

I think for me, and I think that's a great reminder, because for me, I'm doing rapid release, so it feels like I'm on this fast-paced cycle.

I'm talking about book one, but we need to get people in so they can read book one, two and three.

And I feel like there's no option for me to stop talking about the book.

So I'm still talking about book one.

I will still be talking about book one, because book one, you can't read books two and three, not reading book one, absolutely, but people don't, as a rule.

So you want to get people into book one, so they keep reading.

And so that's where my focus really is.

But how do I get people who have bought book one, or even borrowed book one, right?

You can have a load of borrowers in KU now, so people don't always read the books they borrowed.

How do you get those people to want to read it?

And part of that is things like making people feel like it's off the moment, right?

It's like posting lots of reviews, posting scenes.

But really, what's interesting is like, how is that different to what you would do for the pre-launch marketing or thinking about people who are, you know, haven't read the book series, like marketing to a cold audience versus one that's already bought the book and is just doing nothing with it.

Have you got ideas of like specific ways you could reach that second audience of like, you've come in to buy the book, now how do you get them to read it?

I think it's just all part of the strategy that we should have in place for our messaging.

So we've talked about this in the past about having customer profiles.

And I think one thing that I've, when I was doing all my customer profiles, like this person loves to read these books and is a fan of this TV show.

And I was coming up with these customer profiles and I'm like terrible.

I know I have these thoughts, but I haven't had time to kind of do this, is that some of those customer profiles should be, this person's already bought your books and they like what you're doing, but they tend to forget that they've bought this book and they need reminding constantly.

I think it's just a messaging thing.

I think in your genre, if you write a fantasy, there is a big sense of the big new book.

Everyone has to have read this book.

So what could easily happen is you release your book, loads of people buy it, but then the big new book by, you know, big name author, say Lebar Digger puts a book out the next day, you'd be like, well, I guess I wasn't reading that then.

They wanted to read it, and they would love it if they read it, but it just sits in there on their Kindle.

I think to an extent, there's less of that in Cozy, but not none of that, obviously, like, people have their favorite, favorite authors.

So again, say, and people often have quite a few favorite authors, so they might have half a dozen that think, oh, I will read everything, you know, that they write.

So say, I read a book, and then their two favorite authors read books.

Mine is at the bottom of the pile, and they might come back to it or they might not.

And how do I get that person to pick it up?

And I guess for Cozy's as well, if a lot of your business model and other people's business model is rapid release, you rapidly release three books, but somebody else immediately on your coattails rapidly releases three or four books.

And that they catch the reader at the right time, then they're going to spend that time reading somebody else's books.

So it is completely different, but yours also seems a little bit harder in that once somebody's into a Cozy series, they're in it and there could be loads of books that they need to read within that series.

And you have to try and yank them over to your world.

Yeah, and there's also a lot of people who, and I would say to an extent I'm the same, won't read a book until there's a few out in the series, because you think, well, I don't want to...

It feels like an effort to get into a world, and when you're in it, you love it, and you're like, I want to stay in here, and you find there's only two, or there's the person released one a year, you're like, oh, I don't really want to make a home in that world, because there's not enough home for me to have.

I can only visit it once every year.

That's not comforting, to know you're kind of missing something.

So I love that people are like that, because I'm not like that at all.

I never look to see how many books are in a series when I pick them up.

I never, same with TV shows.

I got a friend who never gives back cover books, and I was like, what are you doing?

Yeah, well, sometimes I'll just read like the first bit, and if you know, you know.

But I'm the same with TV shows, the amount of TV shows I've started, I've watched the first series and realized there's nothing else.

And there's no second series.

Yeah, heartbreaking every time.

I do it all the time.

But that I think is interesting is that maybe maybe it's important to change the style of messaging because say people aren't going to read the book until the third or fourth book comes out.

By that time, they've heard the same messaging again and again, right?

They've heard so much that maybe the book feels a bit stale, or it feels like maybe it feels like they've read it because it's so much.

So maybe it's about a key thing is like varying the messaging.

And because I think you get to do that in completed series, right?

You get to do that in fantasy, for example, where when a book comes out, book one, you can talk about the excitement of book one, book two comes out, fantastic book two, book three comes out, complete series, that is a whole new message.

And what is the message for ongoing series?

What is definitely really interesting to me at the moment is thinking about kind of different publishing models that trad and digital first people are doing, because there's a lot of people doing that in Cozy's, and mysteries in general.

There's a lot of digital first crime fiction.

And the people that made Bookature have also founded a publisher quite recently, 2022 or 23, founded Storm Publishing, which is picking up a lot of Cozy Authors.

And I was just listening to any Alexander's podcast the other day, she wrote, she does reality rights.

And she was talking about her new series.

And she has a series that came out almost at the same time as my new series that has got a very not similar concept, but it's a similar sort of niche.

And her book is set in like a bookshop, in sort of they do a lot of mystery things, and there's like a book town almost.

And, and that kind of ties into mine.

And it's, you know, got a lot of culinary ties, she writes up culinary books, there's a lot of that in there.

But her current series, like mine, has got a big backstory mystery.

And she's writing out a complete series.

So she's wrapping up after six, not episodes, books, six books in the series is a complete series.

And then immediately straight after that already planned is another spin off series from that with the same characters going to a different location.

And I think the benefit of that you get an extra entry point to advertise.

But I don't necessarily know that applies to any Alexander because she has a lot of long running series, and she has people are desperately more books by her.

So it's interesting that that's the strategy that Storm has gone for.

And they are a very big, successful picking interesting people doing interesting marketing tactics publisher, so I think they're worth watching.

And that they have chosen to do this, and they worked with that to decide to do this to put a six book complete series out, maybe suggest that they want to be able to advertise it as a complete series as a different way to send out the messaging.

And they did a lot like super rapidly.

So they did books one and two on the same day.

Book three, I think, was maybe a month later at most.

Book six is already scheduled, I think.

And I think the whole of books one to six are going to come out within, if I'm making a guess, I would say four months, it might be six months, but like incredibly tight timeline.

And then that's done.

Then they can advertise that as a completed series.

And I have a background mystery in my series.

Spoiler alert, I don't know how it ends.

So I know the first bits of mine is going to be split into like books, I like to split mine into threes.

So the first three books, you resolve part of the mystery, and then it's going to expand to the next three.

And I think actually probably take nine books to resolve this like big background mystery.

And I'll be interesting, I'll get to watch and see what Alexander is doing with hers and seeing, does she have a different background mystery in the next mini series?

And how are they going to market that?

So I think finding different ways to, I mean, I guess box sets, right?

That's kind of a different messaging, but that reaches different people.

But I think that is different to like post purchase marketing.

How do you reach those people with a different message?

Because you can't just put a message, you know, can't put a social media person like, have you read this book yet?

Is it sat there on your Kindle keeping you, you know, keeping you awake and I think you should read it?

Could you?

You could.

This is the thing.

We should be trying these different ways of, of talking to our readers and seeing what works best.

Maybe some people do want to have the funny little nudge to say, my book is whispering to me that you have not picked it up.

It sounds very sad.

It's not living up to its book potential.

That maybe that's like a bit of messaging that people would like to hear.

Something that I've been thinking about, because I've got my third book of the series coming out in the next couple of months.

And I really want to do a box set maybe towards the end of the year.

I'm going to start thinking about how that works.

But I also am trying to think about putting the first two books on sale before the next one comes out.

So that's obviously a thing to consider that is probably a very good idea, but I've never really done for a prolonged period of time.

I've done 99p deals that last a week maybe, but I'm considering putting my two previous books on 99p for a month just for fun, because I've never done that before.

And to see if that will drum up some business, I don't know.

This year is completely just experimental phase of publishing.

I'm really struggling to take a hit financially, even though I don't make any money.

But when people are putting books in to the thing called, where people put loads of free books out, stuff your Kindle.

And I see so many people doing it and reporting thousands of downloads.

But because it's free, I have not been doing it because I feel like I don't want to keep my book away for free.

But I think it's not beneficial, right?

So giving your book away for free is like, there's no actual cost to you.

But I think it has to be going to the right readers.

And that I think is an interesting one in terms of post purchase, like quote unquote purchase marketing is like, I think people generally don't read books from stuff your Kindle.

Or they read them, they do then, you would have to do a lot of marketing to reach them and say, I know it's on your Kindle, read it.

It just sort of sits there.

I am guilty of this.

I've got tons and tons of books that I've downloaded free.

Or, you know, for 99p at some point that I needed to kind of like, oh, I've meant to get that.

Let me pop out my Kindle.

But I don't actually want to read it right then.

And I often do come back around to them.

So say I'm doing some, you know, recently, right?

Like I wanted to read more books that are based in bookshops because I wanted to promote those on my newsletter as a way to drive my readers to Amazon and connect, like my readers to those books.

So that when I launched my series, that Amazon would know those links.

And I had tons on my Kindle already.

So I just searched in my Kindle, read them and then could promote them to my readers and saying, Oh, I read this, I really liked it.

Give it a try.

When they were sat there, and I read them in the end, but there must be tons I have not read.

Or ones that I picked up and then something else got to top of the list and I put that away and I would never pick up again.

Yeah, so I think those are extreme example of you would have to have a good post, I guess post sale marketing tactic, you know, or freebie marketing tactic as opposed to like, I think, I think post launch marketing, we split those two things out, but we've put in like, post launch as in like, you don't have the example of launch anymore versus post launch, someone's bought the book as a post sale.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think I think those like I've I've participated, there's a cozy one, a cozy little cozy bub.

I've participated and haven't seen any knock on effects.

And I think a lot of people have said similar things.

I think a lot of people feel like might as well write, someone might discover your book and find it's really good now that you've lost nothing.

The people who get books in that way aren't going to buy your book anyway.

But they're so overwhelmingly large, like that I think it's very, very hard to stand out in those groups.

So I think if you're going to do things like a free, you're better off doing it on something specific like Free Booksy, where you're paying a small amount of money to be in the newsletter list.

But like those people are very specifically signed up something on a regular basis to receive free books.

I think they're more likely to read.

Yeah.

But even then we think free is a difficult price point.

I think people just get stuff.

And also they're often not the right audience.

Like people get a book for free and try it and then leave a two star review but like, this wasn't my little book.

Thanks for reading it.

Yeah.

I'm glad that I've kind of held off and I feel like it's constantly a temptation.

But at the same time, it's not a temptation that I want.

It's, yeah, I think I'd rather try different messaging on social media.

And even like my email list, like I've definitely got people on my email list who have not read my books.

They've signed up for maybe a free book.

Like the short story that I put out on Book Funnel, or they've signed up because they've seen me promoting on social media and they just want to see what's going on, but they have not converted into readers.

So I consistently, constantly am thinking about these different methods of reaching people, especially because I am equally bad at once I've released a book, I move on to the next one and assume that the right people will find the book.

That's, I mean, and that's the whole point, isn't it, of this conversation is that in the past, we have probably both released a book and then ignored it, but we can't, that book is forever now part of a conversation.

You've got to constantly, I can't speak today, constantly got to keep talking and keep talking about the book.

It's new to everybody still, even after release, it's still a new book to people.

That's a mentality.

Yeah, I think it is.

And I think it might be useful to think about like, what are some concrete strategies as ways to kind of keep promoting?

I don't know, I think, I think we haven't maybe defined things in a way that's super clear for me.

So think about like, what's the difference between backlist marketing versus post launch marketing?

I think to me, post launch marketing, so we'll maybe separate three things, right?

We've got like backlist marketing, post launch marketing, and post sales marketing.

So post sales, I think we've talked about, I think we can go to more detail with specific techniques.

Backlist marketing, I think that is just like keep talking about your old books.

But post launch marketing, I think there maybe are specific useful things that you can take advantage of in the post launch period, so say like the month that you have to launch, that you don't get a chance to take advantage of at other times.

So we think about some specific tactics for those kind of three different groups.

And this isn't necessarily going to be exhaustive at all, this is just like ways to kind of make sure you're dipping your toe in all the different pools.

I know I'm definitely terrible at backlist marketing, like really, really.

I have put on my newsletter plan, like put a backlist book in every newsletter, in every monthly newsletter.

So I do a monthly and a weekly version, so every monthly one, I was like, I'll put a backlist one.

But then because I've had a new release, I've been talking about that a lot, so I have not put in many backlist books.

But when I do put them in, you know, I'll get a few sales.

So why am I not doing it?

I don't know.

Ty should do that, but even just like, even just like listing it in there, I think is worthwhile, so I'm going to go back to doing that more.

I think for me, it feels like, oh, it takes attention away.

That's not even vaguely true.

People can pay attention to more than one book if they think, oh, that looks good, oh, that looks good.

Yeah, that's fine.

I need to do that more.

Yeah, it kind of stems all the way back to this not wanting to shove your book down people's throats, which is definitely a mindset that I thought that I was over because I've been so forward, like pushing on social media for the last few months.

Like I feel like I'm just constantly ramming my books down people's throats, but definitely thinking about this post-book launch and just any kind of post-marketing.

I do have that thing in the back of my head when you're talking about adding a book into a mailing list, that makes me and my initial feeling is, but people will be sick of me.

But that's stupid.

Pre-launch marketing gets to have a sense where you're building excitement.

So you're giving people a feeling.

And I think I think about this a lot with with marketing is like, with pre-launch books, you're building this excitement and you're there's like there's a hook of is coming, don't want to miss out.

And I really struggle with Cozy Mysteries to think like, how do you build that excitement with a book that's already out?

Because the whole point of Cozy Mysteries is they're not exciting, right?

They're meant to be comforting and not necessarily like safe and reliable, but like they're a known quantity.

They're not, but then in the same way like romances, right?

Romance is always going to have a happy ever after, but there's lots of high stakes along the way.

And that is what you're reading for.

You're reading for to cry when they break up, right?

And you're reading to worry that they're not going to get together, even though you know it's going to happen.

Whereas you're not reading for that like tension in a crazy mystery.

So how do you market that?

So I think that's why it can make me feel easier in some genres to pre-launch market, because you get that tension from the book's coming, you don't want to miss out.

And then when you get to post-launch, you've lost that tension.

So this is something I'm on-going thinking about, is like how to get that tension in a genre that fundamentally is not tense.

I don't have the answer to this, but I'm going to crack it.

Yeah, I guess my question to you is how long do you think you can continue to be excited about the book once you've launched it?

That sounds terrible, but what I mean is how long do you think is the appropriate time to keep talking about a book once it's been released, the next day you post a picture on social media to say the book's out, yay, exciting.

How long can you do that for before you think, should I be talking about the next book or when should I start sprinkling in some stuff about previous books or the next things that are coming out?

That's where I tend to struggle is I always feel like there must be a formula for it and I want to figure it out.

I want to know for the next two weeks, all you're going to do is post about this book and say, it's finally out and that's the only messaging.

And I know there's no right answer.

No, there's no, but I think I definitely should drop that, right?

I drop that like, well, the book's out, if you're going to buy it, you've bought it by now, which is not true, right?

No.

But I, so I definitely my previous tendency has been to pre-launch market and then all start to think about the next book.

However, I feel that with my current book, I am maintaining kind of pre-launch energy for post launch.

And part of that comes from it's it is a rapid release.

So it feels like, so I'm talking about this book, but I get into this before book two comes out, like get on this book.

There was like still things happening.

So it feels like I can, I've got things to talk about.

So like I said, my paperbacks yesterday, so I posted online about my paperbacks.

I've got reviews coming in still so I can post about those.

And yeah, there's still enough kind of coming in.

And for me even, like I'm still watching sales graphs and seeing like, oh, which direction of things are going, am I getting enough, you know, page reads and sales, how am I doing?

So I think as I'm still focusing on this as like a very current book, it feels like I can launch it, I can market in the same way.

But I have not considered switching enough to post sales marketing and thinking about that of like maybe posting more about like the bonus content for starters.

So both, all my books in this series, they have got two recipes at the end.

And a number of people in the reviews have mentioned how excited they are to try the recipes, which is like, it's a very common, cozy thing.

I don't make recipes for other people's books as a rule because they're often for like not for the thing that I want to make.

Do you know what I mean?

If I want to make something after my specific, not just like what happens at the end of a book.

But I think there is a real sense from some readers that they really want to try a new recipe.

And I have specifically put in like traditional English recipes.

And one of the two for each book is like a traditional Yorkshire recipe.

So I kind of think people want to try that if you're in the world of the book.

So I could do my post sales marketing, focusing a bit on the recipes.

I've also got a little like newspaper for the world of the book is from that is in the end of book one to start with.

And again, could do something like that.

Maybe start posting in a bit more detail about characters.

I think that is a good post sales marketing.

Like, oh, have you got a favorite character from the book?

And give people a sense that you should have read it by now, right?

Yeah.

That you should have a favorite character by now.

And have you met the cats yet in the book and things like that?

Yeah.

So I think...

And that's something I would never normally do, because that just feels like, to an extent, that does feel like talking about something people would be bored of.

But it's not true at all.

Which that brings me to it.

That brings me to something that I was going to ask you.

And I know that this is a cruel question, because to me, I also would never do this, but say like, let's go back to the fact that you posted that you got your paperback version today.

And I saw the video and it was really cute.

Are you gonna post that again?

A different version?

How many times are you gonna send that message?

And the same with recipes.

If you were to show or bake one of the recipes from the book, do you have a plan of how many times you would do that?

I think that's actually interesting actually about TikTok.

It's like, you know that the videos are going to a different audience every time.

So it's definitely made me feel more comfortable of saying the same thing over and over again.

So for example, when I filmed my video of me opening a paperback, I also filmed lots of additional like mini clips of me with the paperbacks.

Or I also thought about the video that I had of me opening the paperback, I could put with no sound and speed parts up and put that to other clips and things.

I was like, I already know how I'm going to get multiple use out of this.

And, and I've done that knowing that it's not going to say people every time.

However, that is giving me the the practice and the energy that I want to take that into my other social media.

So things like in my Facebook group, in fact, I've been doing a lot more, not my Facebook group, my Facebook page, I've been doing a lot more posting about the same book.

Because why not?

Right?

Yeah, like that feels like if people don't want to see it, then they will stop looking and they won't get it anymore.

I mean, the same on Instagram, I've posted a lot of like similar videos that are different, but not the same about the same book.

Because again, if you stop interacting, it stops showing up.

And I'm looking at people who want to interact a lot.

And when I say a lot, I mean, like every few days, right?

They're going to see something every few days.

That's not a lot.

Who wouldn't want to see me every few days?

I do.

I mean, you're one of my starred accounts and I always get yours very, the very first thing when I go on to Instagram, it's always you.

Yeah.

It's always me wearing weird outfits.

Yeah.

Or a funny hat.

With a cute hat, yeah.

Yeah.

But that's, and I really like that.

And I really want, I personally really want to see the authors that I follow constantly posting.

But when it comes to me, I feel like, and I have this weird thing about Instagram.

This is like specifically Instagram because I don't think about it on TikTok.

Even though I can see the stats on Instagram, I really have this thing about not wanting people to go on my page and just see me posting the exact same thing over and over again.

Even though no one looks at that.

But on TikTok, I don't care about doing that.

And I can see people looking on my account, and I get notifications saying, this many people viewed your account today.

So that is such a stupid mental block.

And as of today, I'm over it.

I've decided.

I think, okay, I'm not sure I'm thinking inside.

Think about what's behind that block.

Is it that you think people will think you're not creative?

In that they'll think that you're up yourself because you're saying, talking about your own book over and over again.

Like, what do you think?

What's behind that thought of, I don't want to be post the same thing.

I don't want to be seen post the same thing again, again.

I think it's that they might just think I'm boring and I have a very strong adversity to be thought of as boring, which is because I'm a middle child.

And I, yeah, I don't, I think it's just like a boredom thing.

I don't want people to look and think I only have one thing to talk about.

But then that's silly, because it's clear that I've got a lot to talk about.

So I don't know.

Yeah, I think it's just, I just don't want people to look and be like, oh, she just says the same things over and over.

That's not interesting.

Because I don't think that about other people.

Yeah, like we looked at accounts like Paper Fury, right?

That's the same over and over and over again.

But it's the same done really well.

And by doing it over and over again, that account has like perfected what they do.

And, and even if you like I see Paper Fury accounts, like I follow Paper Fury on multiple different platforms.

And I might see like a couple of threads a day and a couple of Instagram posts, like, and that's fine.

It doesn't feel like too much.

Because again, if I'm feeling bored of it, I just scroll past faster, and I get less of it for a while and then it comes back again.

And it feels like I think you can trust the algorithm to bring things people as they feel interested.

But there was definitely the fear of like, what if everyone's bored of it, and no one ever wants anything?

And then I'm just boring.

But that I think is a bigger self doubt issue.

I think one area where I don't repeat myself enough is to my newsletter, because I assume that everyone reads every newsletter faithfully, word to word, which I know is not true given the stats.

And also, I read people's newsletters at a skim.

And then maybe one in every few, I will read thoroughly.

And I personally have my cats at the end of my newsletter.

So I am sure there are people who just open the newsletter to scroll down and look at the cats who don't read the actual content.

And maybe every few, I say this knowing one of the people is my brother.

They scroll past something that I think, Oh, that's caught my eye.

I didn't know that book had come out.

And so I just need to be more repetitive in the newsletter as well, even though it's people that I feel like they have read every word I have written, they have not.

They sometimes look at the cats.

Yeah, well, the cats are a draw.

And I did appreciate in the last newsletter, Miss Marple's tiny legs.

Yeah, I don't have double cats in the newsletter.

To think my aunt really gave me double cats.

The sweetest little things.

I love them.

I think they're not even small legs.

I think she's just been eating too much food.

She looks like some sort of dwarf cat.

She's got these tiny little legs.

I know she's not.

No, I think they're just looking stumpy because she's got a bit of winter weight on her at the moment.

Bless her.

I love her.

So what do you think you have gained from this?

Any insights on this?

Do you feel like you have changed your thinking on post-launch marketing?

Yeah, absolutely.

This has been so helpful.

Because I do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Even if it's just a few of me.

I think just having someone talk about it in a different way, someone who's taken, literally taken the words in a different way, is just always very helpful.

So I think I want to do variation of messaging so that I am capturing different people at different times, and also want to really make sure I've got a strategy for post-sales marketing that is building excitement for people who have read the book.

Which I think, to start with, is going to feel really awkward, because I think I don't capture people enough.

I think I don't have them on my social media.

I think I don't necessarily, because I'm doing a lot of advertising as well.

They're not necessarily anywhere that I can recapture them.

But I just have to start and keep going.

But generally, if they have bought something, let's say, if they bought a book on Amazon, there will be a cookie somewhere that will get them on your algorithm somehow if you're posting enough.

There must be some sort of cross conversion with Amazon and other apps.

Like, I'm sure that there is.

So even if those people don't follow you and they bought the book, if you're talking about it enough, it's more than likely that they will come across your social media account.

And also the sort of people who buy a book for Facebook, right?

So they're the sort of people that Facebook knows, read crazy mysteries, like I've targeted with like whatever I target them with, they are likely to encounter other posts from me in future.

Yes, because I will post that sort of thing.

Yeah, I think I definitely want to do some thinking about what type of content to post because I don't have a strategy.

And when I say content to post, I mean, also using my newsletter, also thinking about in other places.

And I think I don't have enough a strategy for that.

And really enough a way to like, do less salesy content.

Yes, a lot of like pre launch marketing is like, because you don't have any necessary content that you want to share.

You want to share like, here's the book cover.

Here's like the blurb.

Here's some scenes.

But you're people can't enter the world yet.

So you don't want to get into that.

Like, who's your favorite character?

Because the answer is, I don't know.

I haven't read it.

And you don't people haven't had a chance to bake the recipes.

So yeah, so I sort of neglected that because it hasn't been relevant.

Whereas now I 100% need to pick up and in my newsletter, right?

Like I need to to do more on that and think about like, Oh, has anyone baked the recipes this week?

Like, here's what I made.

I made the recipe from book number one this week for my family.

Here's us eating the scones.

I didn't add anything to it.

I changed my recipe in this way.

Just keep it as a conversation.

I feel like it's very doable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like my brain is just, I feel like I've had a load of mini epiphanies all at once.

Epiphany.

Yeah, like I feel like things are clicking into place, which is really nice.

And I can sit and think about this so much on my own, and I can write all the post-its, which I've like, I'm surrounded by post-its with ideas on, but it's only by saying it out loud and having a back and forth, that things kind of really do start to make more sense.

And like, and it seems so obvious, like some of the things that we've said seem so obvious, and we've probably talked about it before.

Some people are listening to me like, why haven't you thought this before?

Yeah, like, or like, we have talked about this before, but you just get so distracted.

Like, this is the reality of this whole publishing thing.

And why we want to talk about it, like so openly, even though it sounds like we're just like going over the same things.

It's that you get so focused on doing the work, which obviously is important, but like doing the writing and the editing and the publishing, and it's so easy for these other things to fall by the wayside, and you just don't have the energy or the mental capacity to like, to touch it again, like to pick up that poster and be like, oh yeah, I was gonna do this.

So the more we have these conversations, I have to think about it.

I don't want to think about things that make more work for me.

Yeah.

So, and I'm so busy that I would never, in a million years, have spent an hour this evening, thinking about this.

But actually, this has saved me, if I had to think about it myself, like months of putting this off, just talking about it.

And now I think, oh yeah, I can easily do that.

Let me just mull it over for the next few days and then start posting like that.

Fine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like much, much better.

I wish for writing and editing with this fresh and easy.

One day we'll co-write and co-edit and we'll realize that together we are one fully functioning human brain.

I mean, what can't we do, right?

What wouldn't we be able to publish?

I have had an opinion this week that I mentioned to you when I was going to talk about the podcast.

It hasn't really come up because I think it's not necessarily relevant to this.

But I think having a rapid release, so sort of connected, having a rapid release has really given me a way to think about my books in a more businessy way than I have in the past.

One has made things that people talk about in self-publishing just seem really obvious.

Like stuff we talked about today, right?

Just seems really obvious.

Like of course you have to do that sort of different various marketing, and I keep talking about the book.

And I want to just kind of capture where I'm thinking at the moment.

And this is not necessarily a great thought, and it's not a thought that anyone else can do anything with.

But I think one of the big benefits of podcasts is that we kind of capture the process of our thinking and our experience of self-publishing.

So this, because I've got three books coming out very quickly, I am advertising, knowing that I'm going to lose money on my advertising of book one, and I have an estimated read three of books two and three.

And that's based on just sales.

So because I started advertising my book before I launched, I could only make money back on sales, I couldn't make money back on page reads.

And I have got a series now that is much, much more responsive to ads than my other series in the past.

And it just feels like such a light in the tunnel, like light in the tunnel to be able to see something the way that other people talked about it.

So other people have talked about, oh, you need a long series.

You advertise book one, knowing you're going to lose money until the read to book three, and then you make money on books four, five, and six.

And then you'll also make money on page reads.

It felt like an epiphany this week when I just literally have seen that happen.

Yeah.

And like I have got adverts that are making the money that I need them to make to cover from read through to one to three.

And then I'm also making additional money from read through.

And I can now see how if you have a book that's written to market, and it's a long series, and you advertise it, then you make money.

And that has seemed so impossible to me until now.

And I have until now just thought I don't understand because I've done many of these things, right?

I've got a longer series, I've tried Facebook advertising, I've done these things and got no result.

And so like, are people lying?

Am I am I missing something?

What am I doing wrong?

And for ages, I just really haven't been able to see it.

And right now it feels like more enough things have kind of aligned that I can see how I can do it.

Right?

I can with this current series, if if it was six books long, and I advertise it and I'm I'm spending all the money from adverts and on sales for one, two and three, and making money on the read through to four, five and six and making money on the page reads.

That's that's money.

That's profit.

Like, yeah, that seems such as like a simple, clear idea that everyone's been talking about for ages.

And that has just I've never found a way to make it feel applicable.

And it's so fascinating to be in the exact same position I've been in before, right, where I've got a series and I've tried advertising and for it just to work differently, because I've spent a long time learning the business and I have fixed mistakes I made in the past, you know, and I've, I'm not doing things perfectly, but I have shored up enough holes, that even if this series doesn't make me a lot of money, right, that I'm not saying this definitely will like things go wrong, I could write a terrible book to who knows, but like, I can now understand that there is a truth to write a long series.

Yeah, the model works.

But you've made it work.

No, because because before probably like you, and you know this about yourself, you would have done advertising and it hadn't worked immediately, so you'd stopped.

And maybe then you'd have a break and then you start again, try it again, but you weren't getting any momentum and the mindset wasn't there, because you've done so much work on that and just like getting yourself in the right place.

So I just wasn't doing enough things, right?

The book just went to market enough.

I didn't get like pre-release reviews.

I didn't have enough leavers pulled to get things going.

Like I had a lot of brakes on my car and I was like, why isn't this car moving?

And I'm like, you've got your brake pedal down and the handbrake on.

I don't know why you think that happened.

Whereas now I put all the brakes off and I'm in a low gear.

And maybe I never get to a high gear.

That is fine, but like I can see how you make the car move now.

And it's just a matter of getting the car better and better.

Whereas before I was like, well, the car's broken.

A car analogy, ladies and gentlemen.

Can you even imagine?

We have covered all modes of transportation on this podcast.

I love it.

Yeah.

And she doesn't even drive.

I can drive though.

I have a license.

I know.

I know.

It would be dangerous behind the wheel, but I could.

Well, I think that's a very nice place to end, because we'll never top that.

So next week, we're talking about time management, which is everyone's favourite thing to talk about.

And also rolling production schedules.

So do you have any initial thoughts on this right now?

Yes, I am doing a terrible job at the moment, and I would like to do better.

I am tired all the time and I have no capacity to take a break.

There is no rigour room in my schedule, and I've done this to myself, and it was a poor choice.

And I would like to think through and reflect on that before I make this choice again, and figure out ways in which I could have done things better.

And there's no crisis happening at the moment, I'm just very tired, and I'm at absolutely the edge of possible time to get things done.

And it feels stressful, and I do not like this feeling, and I would like to do it better.

So not great is how I feel right now, but I have a lot of thoughts.

What about you, you got any thoughts on this?

I do, I think I mentioned last week, and we've definitely talked about this, about how I finally understand how time works.

So I can't wait to try and vocalize that.

I think I'll have a lot to say, definitely I've been working a lot with my schedule and trying to understand my own processes and how I want the business to work versus how it's currently working.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to talking about it because it's really fresh in my mind right now.

So I look forward to looking at my big calendar and trying to explain how I see time working for me.

Nobody else, just me.

We, yeah, I'm looking forward to talking about that.

I think that would be so useful.

Again, another one where it's like, I think I don't have any good ideas right now, but I think talking it through will be the thing that fix it.

Because right now it feels like I couldn't possibly change my schedule.

I need to get things done.

But actually, I probably could.

Like tonight, I have decided I'm going to take the evening off.

Even though that would be behind schedule, I am only going to get more and more tired and I'll get sick if I don't take a break this evening.

Yeah.

I think it's the same with, yeah, we like thinking about this in a bit more depth.

We need a question of the week for our Discord group.

And I personally, from a purely selfish standpoint, would quite like it to be, what are your post-sales marketing techniques?

So once you've sold someone the book, what techniques do you use to try and make sure they're reading it?

Yes.

Whatever you're using, please share it with us in Discord so that we can steal those ideas and use them as our own.

It's a really great place.

Or even when you think of some post-sales techniques.

Like we've talked about today, like just getting the conversation going.

It's like, oh, I have got thoughts.

And I just bounce them off someone else makes them much better.

And now I know what to do.

Yeah, just cast judgment on what we've talked about.

Yeah, like jump in there.

Just tell us that you think that we're dumb and we haven't done it right.

You can do that too.

We haven't.

It's fine.

Yeah.

Otherwise, it would be such a grown podcast if we were perfect.

We're really doing this for you guys.

This is for the clock.

Yeah, 100%.

So thank you very much for joining us tonight or to this week.

We will be back next week.

Don't forget to like, subscribe, tell your friends, and we'll see you next time.

Goodbye.

Goodbye.

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