S02E09: What Authenticity Does For Branding

Sam and Matilda get specific with social media, and how branding can make all the difference.

Next week on the podcast is all about switching genres... 

Where to find Sam and Matilda:

SAM IG: @sammowrimo

Website: www.samantha-cummings.com

Book to start with:

Curse of the Wild (Moons & Magic Book 1) https://amzn.eu/d/3QHym3m

Most recent book:

Heart of the Wolf (Moons & Magic Book 2) https://amzn.eu/d/4HecH3a

MATILDA IG: @matildaswiftauthor

Website: www.MatildaSwift.com

Book to start with: https://books2read.com/TheSlayoftheLand (book #1 of The Heathervale Mysteries)

Most recent book: https://books2read.com/ButterLatethanNever (book #3 of The Slippery Spoon Mysteries)  

Mentioned on the show:

JOIN THE PEN TO PAYCHECK DISCORD: https://discord.gg/w7BjxmeXfF

Buffer - social media scheduler: https://buffer.com/

Kate Hall’s business Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@katehallbiz

Transcript:

Welcome to your next step of the Self Publishing Mountain.

I'm Matilda Swift, author of Quintessentially British Cozy Mysteries.

And I'm Samantha Cummings, author of Young Adult Books about Magic, Myths and Monsters.

I've written the books, changed their covers, tweaked their blurbs, tried tools from a dozen ad courses, and I'm still not seeing success.

Now, we're working together to plot and plan our way from barely making ends meet to pulling in a living wage.

Join us on our journey where we'll be mastering the pen to snag that paycheck.

Hello and welcome to Pen to Paycheck Authors podcast.

I'm Matilda Swift here with my co-host, Samantha Cummings, and we're here to write our way to financial success.

We're two indie authors with over a dozen books between us, and still a long way to go towards the quit the day job dream.

If that sounds familiar, listen along for our mastery through missteps journey.

Each week we cover a topic to help along the way.

This week's topic is social media and branding.

Before that, what are your wins and whinges of the week?

I have no whinges, only wins, because today I wrote 7,000 words in one sitting.

I say one sitting, I did break it up, and finished my book with a week to spare before it has to go to the editors.

I was just writing the end, like the last couple of chapters.

But yeah, I sat down today and I knew I had 3 chapters to write just to finish it, and I thought, I'm just going to do that today.

And yeah, I got to come in the office and take off all of my beat sheet things.

I was like, yep, hit every single one.

Yeah, I'm feeling very excited.

I was a little bit sad, because I've been writing these books for what feels like 10 years.

So I'm kind of sad that the story is over, but I'm so excited.

Yes, yeah, I do have some little short stories planned.

And who knows, maybe people will eventually find the series and love it, and I can write new books.

There's scope for it, of course.

Yeah, I finished feeling like a winner, and I had a little glass of port to celebrate, because, you know, why not drink port?

I'm so fancy.

Love it.

I love that port.

How about you?

What are your whims and whinges?

I'm going to say I've sort of got a win and a win, just because same thing.

So my win is that I've not got any writing done, and I've not really got any other things on my list that I had.

No, I got a good trick of them done, but I've got more things I could have done.

But really my win is that I chose not to do them, because I had just reached a stage where I just couldn't continue at that pace, and I wanted to be able to kind of make a judgment and say, I'm going to have more break this week, and push back on things that aren't essential.

And part of it, like I noticed on Wednesday, I go to a writing group on Wednesday, it's just one where you sit and do your own writing, and I didn't have time to do writing then, and I kind of didn't need to, I wanted to get some admin stuff out of the way.

So I was doing a lot of admin things and prepping for some writing, like my next writing project, and everyone else left about nine, and I had to say and finish about half night.

But I finished at half night, I was like, oh gosh, I finished so early this evening.

I finished my to-do list.

It's not even midnight, it's not even nearly midnight.

What else should I fit in?

I was like, you know what, this is not good.

It's been longer than I can remember before I didn't pack in work until midnight.

And I start work at eight in the morning, like on my day job.

So I would be working till midnight, go to sleep, which I'm very fortunate I can go straight to sleep.

So I'd go to sleep at midnight, wake up at seven, go to work, and then just rinse and repeat and just keep doing that.

And I was like, you know what, I need to get out of the habit of feeling like that's normal.

It's so unhealthy.

And it's fine to do it in a short term, and I'd consciously done it in a short kind of short term burst way, but it was feeling like I wasn't questioning it.

So I took this week to really be more evaluative in my to list.

Someone in our Discord made a great suggestion for kind of being better with your to do list, and that was estimating the time for every item on it.

And I did that this week, and I kept finding myself estimating like five more hours than I had in my day.

So I was like, okay, put those things on then.

So that was really useful.

Realizing on Wednesday that I was kind of having very unhealthy blood pressure was useful.

And then this weekend, I had a friend coming today, so I was forced to not work, but you know, someone who doesn't live very near here, so they were driving up for Friday evening, gonna leave about Friday afternoon.

So I was like, oh, I could fit in some more work around that and do X, Y, and Z.

And I'm just so exhausted that I was like, there's nothing I need to do this weekend that can't wait till next week, that wouldn't be benefited by me being more rested next week.

So I'm gonna tell you about the world's best weekend.

I just had it and it was so good.

I want to remember how good it felt to relax and consciously do these things.

So my whole house had got unbelievably messy due to months and months of just focusing heads out editing.

And it's fine because only I live here and I have three of the same room stacked on top of each other.

And they're all slightly big for one person.

So you can just sort of make a mess at the edge of the room and not really be bothered by it.

And I'm not like hoarder levels, like stacks of things fall on top of me, but just like the sort of mess where you just notice it all the time out of the corner of your eye and just feeling a bit like, oh, so it's been all Friday just cleaning.

And it was so satisfying and felt so kind to myself to make my space clean again and tidy.

And tidy things that don't really need tidying.

So there's parts of my attic that are just reused for storage and they just kind of become dumping grounds.

I can't just cleaning off those bits.

So I did that on Friday.

Then my friend came over and we watched the first episode of the new Agatha Christie on BBC, which was so good.

And it's set on Burr Island, which we are going to go to together.

It's the thing that my brother got me a ticket to my hotel.

So it's set on Burr Island, which is so beautiful.

So it's towards zero if anyone's looking out for it.

It's on BBC, I'm sure it will be available around the world.

But it was lovely.

So we watched the first episode of that while just like eating nice food on the sofa and relaxing.

And then the next day, I booked into the sauna, which is two minutes from my house.

It's a little like outdoor sauna.

And it was so sunny and beautiful that we had the sauna.

And then we sat outside around like a little open fire for an hour and just sat in deck chairs and they brought us herbal tea.

And we just chatted.

And then we went home and worked on a little book note kit that I'd also got for my fourth year for my stepmom.

And we just like made a little Japanese scene for a book note.

And like ate delicious snacks.

And then we watched the rest of Yagatha Christie while we had pancakes because it was pancake day here last week, but we didn't get a chance to do it this week.

So we had some pancakes, we drank mimosas.

And then this morning we went to the garden center.

There's a phenomenal garden center here.

You're saying all the right words.

Garden center.

I know, we went to the garden center, we got loads of plants.

And then she left and I spent the afternoon gardening, which is so satisfying because I left my garden all last year because the weather was so miserable.

And I honestly, I think I watered my garden once and it has survived.

So that's how miserable the weather was last year.

I couldn't face gardening last year.

So this year, I was like, I got all my weeding done.

I put in a new little tree.

Then I did my indoor plants again, which was like, I kind of let some of them, you know, go need it, need some care.

Did that and then I was like, I could get those bits of work done before the podcast.

I just took a bath.

I took a bath and I watched, I'm rewatching Lost, because I really want to watch some things with like the tease out, Long Mysteries.

I have been talking about rewatching Lost recently.

It's so worth it.

It's so worth it.

Yeah.

And then I've come to the podcast.

It's like that, I think it maybe doesn't sound like the most exceptional weekend, but a lot of the small, It sounds like my perfect, that's like my perfect weekend.

It just felt like such a treat to give myself, like all the small things that I really like to do, that are just like real treasures to myself.

And I did a little bit of work on the Friday before a friend came, because I wanted to set up some Facebook ads.

And I like set up my paperback, so I can order my paperback to my new book.

So like little things, but nothing that was exhausting.

And I had some good sleeps, but I'm still tired.

It's like, you know what, I'm so glad I took a rest this weekend, because I'm going to have a long sleep after this, and hopefully next week get into really good routines, and kind of stop working to exhaust myself, and hopefully recover.

Disappointing that I haven't recovered instantly, you know, that I've not just like snapped back in feeling like wide awake and full of energy.

But having the energy to garden today, felt like such a big change.

It was exhausting, but nice.

Yeah, no, that sounds like the absolute perfect weekend for me.

I can't even, when you said that you went to a sauna, I instantly felt how relaxed that would make me feel.

And I just don't know why I don't do things like that for myself, because I am surrounded by places like that.

And it's so lazy.

It's literally two minutes from my house.

I've been to it before when it was in a different location, and I went on a cold day, and it's actually not as nearly as fun on a cold day.

So this time, so good.

It was like a really beautiful weekend, where it was warm enough to sit outside this weekend.

Here in the UK, I don't know if it was like the whole of the UK, but in the up north, yeah, we've had such a good weekend, like real spring weather.

So like not, yeah, like I haven't worn my winter coat for the last few days.

I went out without my scarf today for the first time ever, which for me is like, I love a scarf.

I like to be cozy.

And I didn't go, yeah, I left my scarf at home.

And it has made such a difference.

I love seeing, I'm such a, an Instagram hashtag spring, hashtag blossoms girl.

I love it.

And I've been just dying to see blossom for so long.

And saw it this weekend and felt like I was a different person.

I have blossomed anew alongside it.

I am like, I'm buzzing.

Yeah, it does make such a difference.

So I was like, I was out working my garden.

One of my neighbors was working her garden.

I like I was putting out new herbs, like seeds and I was like, Oh, here have some seeds as tons of the packet.

I have some of those.

She was emptying her planter or the soil.

She's like, Oh, do you want some soil?

Yes.

I was like, Oh, what a nice exchange.

And then I have a slightly bizarre garden.

It's like the only garden you can kind of see from the road for a long way.

And it's sort of in the middle of the street basically.

And whenever I work and people stop and tell me how lovely it is and how much they enjoy walking past it.

And it's not, it's fine.

It's just not like a fantastic garden.

It's a few containers, but I, it's all pink and purple and all the plants in it are pink and purple.

And it's just like really bright and sunshiny.

It's got a really nice bench in it.

And it's just, it's so, it's not the garden itself.

It's like the community feeling of working in the garden, sharing things and yeah, being part of the world.

That's what I really not had recently.

And this weekend has really made me feel like part of the world again.

And I really need to be more mindful about doing that.

Yeah, no, the same, yeah.

I can't wait to get back to my allotment and actually get my hands into the dirt and try and grow loads of herbs and stuff and become my normal witchy self.

We should really get into the topic.

We've been chatting for a good while just about how great our lives are.

So the topic of the week this week is social media and branding.

This is another topic that we have talked about before, but why are we discussing it again?

Good question that I wrote myself to feel a lot of pressure wanting.

So I think we talk we talk loads about kind of different social media things, what we want to try, how we feel about it.

I've said a million times that, oh, I need to do more social media.

And kind of what I wanted to talk about today is kind of a reckoning of like, I've tried plenty of things.

And I think I said last week, like it's often the first thing I dropped on my list.

And I kind of want to have a discussion of thinking about how are we consciously using it?

And like, how can you use it in a way that works for you?

Because I don't want to run a Facebook group, like a group where people post funny memes about reading, or you have to post every day and get people chatting.

Like to me, that feels like work.

Like it feels incredibly unpleasant.

And there are groups that I enjoy being part of.

So I'm not saying this group is a bad thing objectively.

It doesn't feel pleasurable to me, the idea of running that.

And it feels actively unpleasant.

So it's not like I think, oh, it's been part of the job, I'll do that.

I feel like anything in that direction is not thing I want to do.

Even things like posting daily on my page, it feels inauthentic to me.

And we've said previously about, you know, I just find it really hard to do things that don't feel authentic.

And I could do them, right?

There's things that I do do that don't feel authentic, but I understand the benefit to them.

And I think that's part of the business.

Whereas for me, social media, it's more even like the consistency of it is what feels inauthentic.

Like, if I'm posting every day, that's not natural.

So that's not real.

And if I'm just posting when I feel like it, that's not rewarded.

So then kind of how do I find a useful way?

And I've tried various things.

I did really enjoy posting on TikTok.

You know, we had that challenge from Anna Bezrako this year, and I tried that, but I don't think it necessarily moved the needle at all.

And I was consistent and I had plenty of posts.

And unlike you, I am very impatient with that sort of thing.

But I did it.

You know, I did it fairly consistently and I have to see like, okay, I see how it works and I see what's interesting about it and what's not.

I'm not sure for the time it's necessarily something that is going to stay at the top of my list.

And so whenever there's a time pressure, it drops.

And then it's like, then what's the point of it?

And I've tried, you know, there's like various different thoughts on different ways you can do social media.

So, for example, TikTok, like Kate Hall is quite open about, here's how you need to be kind of setting up your TikTok in a way to get people viewing it and to make it effective.

And I've set something like that up.

And it was really useful to look at kind of her process.

And she's got a TikTok account.

I think she's got several.

I think this one's called Kate Hall Biz.

So I'll put a link into that if you want to kind of look into how she does it.

She's really open about it.

And she does have a TikTok course.

I haven't done it, but I know someone on Discord has and has kind of found that really interesting.

So I think I've, I feel like the benefit is like I've definitely over the past few months, really looked into it and like really understood what it is, and sort of various social media things, like really taking time to think about it and not just kind of push it away.

But I feel like I don't yet have a way in which I think it's, it's going to work for me and that I want to make it part of my business.

But I do feel like there should be something I can do with it.

And I don't want to just like, you know, so much was at the prime, but like, it's not for me.

And I know that you're almost the exact opposite of like, you really enjoy it, almost like for itself.

So I just kind of wanted to have a chat about like, how do you, how do you make it work for you?

And how do you think I can make it work for me?

Okay.

Yeah.

Like no pressure at all to completely convince you.

Quick sell social media.

I used to, like, and I've said this before in previous episodes and stuff, like I used to really struggle with posting and not being consistent and feeling like, what was the point?

Because, you know, like you say, the needle doesn't really move that much, so you're not getting anything from it.

And then we did the challenge on TikTok.

And within doing that, I really like it when I get set a challenge, because I love competing with myself.

And when I set myself a task, I will do it to the bitter end, because I'm just...

Yeah, because you're doing it for yourself.

Like, that's how I thought of it.

I was like, I've set myself this challenge.

I am living up to the equipment I've made to myself.

And as soon as that ended, I felt it much easier to drop it, because it's like, well, there's no problem now.

I did wonder whether I would drop it, because posting, like, the challenge kind of like built up.

It was just like, to start with, it was post once on TikTok.

And then you increase your posts to three a day.

And I did think that I would drop back down to maybe like one every other day, but I actually have consistently stayed two to three posts a day on TikTok.

And then I cross cross post them to Instagram, if I think like people on Instagram might like it.

Sometimes I kind of make a decision that it's not an Instagram post.

I don't know why, just how I feel.

There's no rhyme or reason.

It's just a vibe thing.

But I think the reason that I have stuck with it is because I maybe tricked myself into thinking I liked it, much like when I tricked myself into thinking that I like cleaning the kitchen.

I think I've tricked myself into liking posting on TikTok.

And I don't actually, I'm not one of those people that scrolls a lot on TikTok.

I scroll a lot of Instagram, but on TikTok I post and do the whole post and ghost thing.

I'll have a look and see what my friends have posted.

Just like my mutuals and interact with their stuff.

But I'm not scrolling through TikTok to see other people's stuff.

So I'm not wasting time there.

I'm going on and I'm creating something for my own enjoyment.

Like I feel like I'm just creating things for myself.

Because even though I'm out of the 200 views jail, I'm back into the 700, 800 view jail.

I've not yet reached a thousand views or anything, which feels frustrating.

And that is one thing that I would say is frustrating about TikTok, is that you feel like you're doing well, but not well enough.

They think that makes me go back.

It's like intermittent rewards, like that's something to make you keep coming back.

And they think that's why I'm going back.

And maybe I am in some ways, but in other ways, I just really like posting stuff on there.

I like making things, and I suppose because I actually don't think the needle is going to move all that much, or I'm not expecting it to.

Like if something were to blow up and I get a viral post, it won't be anything that I've done.

It's just going to be random.

So I don't really have much of a tie to like the outcome of stuff.

I'm just like trying different things to see like what looks good.

And I rewatch my own videos more than anybody else does.

I love my own posts.

What do you think you're getting out of that?

Like when you say to see what looks good, is it...

Because I definitely found it helpful when doing that TikTok challenge to have to articulate the hooks for my book and figure out what's best about the book and then do you have sizing?

Yeah, that exactly is...

It's just like every time I go and do a post, I never...

This is probably like other people do this differently.

You can look at your stats and see what posts have done well and you can like build on those and repost them.

And I do repost the same images and some of the same text, but I write a different caption every time just off the top of my head.

Because I just want to see like, maybe like, maybe today I'll understand what I'm doing more.

And it's more of an exploratory, like within myself situation.

So I'm just telling myself the story over and over again, as a way for me to understand it, which sounds really like, obviously I should understand my own story.

And I do, but it's just like, I'm just telling myself how much I like my own stuff.

And I'm just building up my own ego.

I also think that it takes a lot of time to understand, understand it in like the shortest, hookiest way possible.

Yes, yes.

In the way that like, I know the, you know, full length novel version of my story.

And I maybe now know the blurb version of my story, but like, do I know the like five words that is gonna make someone say that, that is for me?

And I think that, that is definitely something that romance authors have, you know, yes, really got to a tee.

But yeah, it's interesting, actually, we were talking about kind of the specificity of romance in the Cozy Clubhouse recently, because we're looking at other genres, and we'll talk a bit more about this next week, I think.

And we were talking about how sort of romance authors have to an extent kind of made themselves a rod for their own back by making things so specific, and that you have to market it with like, this exact set of keywords, and someone might like three of the four keywords, but they don't have the fourth one, they're not reading your book, which we don't have that limitation of the genre so much.

And maybe we don't want to find it because then you really are again, like making a rod for your own back.

And I think that's interesting because I think actually romance, like part of it is based on your attraction.

And I think that is quite specific.

Like I, in my romantic life, might like the idea of billionaires.

And fainting mates, right?

I think there's like, there's kind of have, you know, close ties to things that I might find genuinely attractive in my real life.

And if there's things like age gap, I might be like, oh, no, like, you can't read something that gives you the itch, right?

It's like you have that in other genres.

You might think, oh, I always find it a bit cliche, maybe in a cozy mystery where the, the sleuth, their partner is the police officer.

And it's like, you can find it cliche, you can find it a bit annoying, but it doesn't give you the itch.

And that's, I think, the interesting thing, I think, why romance authors are forced to be so specific in their hooks, and because they know exactly what the readers want.

And I think to an extent in other genres, we don't necessarily have readers that have such exact wants maybe.

And I think TikTok has helped me feel like I'm getting as close as I can to that, to articulate that.

So I do really find it useful.

But I think to me then it felt like, okay, and that's useful for me to understand, like I found TikTok, I found something I could stick with when I felt like it was giving me something useful.

And then I was that I've also been, you know, in the 7800 views jail and, and then like, and that's a great number of views to be getting, right?

Like if you are on other platforms, you'd be like, fantastic.

Thank you, Facebook for giving me a bunch of reviews.

But they don't necessarily think they convert sales at those low numbers.

So then what's the what's to kind of keep me coming back?

I think that's what I found hard when I'm short of time.

Like it's something that I do find, you know, I like the visuals.

I like the kind of thinking of the tech.

So if I had all the time in the world, I probably would do more social media.

But I think for me, I would need to have something that is keeping me coming back.

And how do you, how do you feel like you kind of maintain that feeling?

I just really like that, that I feel like I'm doing something fun and creative.

And I think that's what keeps me going back.

But I also, I'm just really good at sticking to habits.

I have a super human ability to consistently stick to habits.

And that does help me.

And obviously, it doesn't help other people who aren't that great at sticking to habits.

But every day, it's just part of my daily routine.

I'm at work, I'm at my desk, I've made a to do list, and I stick my social media on my work to do list.

And I generally will try and do it at lunchtime.

But I do, if I'm bored at my desk, I do write a few ideas down of what social media posts I want to post that day.

I don't plan them really far in advance.

Sometimes it's just that day.

Because your videos are very involved.

They're not just like, here's a graphic, here's a text on it.

They're like tiny movie productions.

Yeah, and just in Canva, thanks.

Thank you to Paid Canva for sponsoring my life.

Yeah, for our official sponsor.

Yeah, I will just-

A sponsor that they don't run.

I have like a few pre-saves, like the little templates that I've set up for like video formats and different videos saved, and I have things in folders.

So if I'm looking for videos, but I'll tell you what, my most used videos are just me writing, because they do do really well.

Or like little witchy things that I do like the candle ones, are always fun.

So I've just got those saved on my phone, and I just go into my videos folder and I just reselect them.

I would say like, I'm not as good as repeating as I could be, because I think that every day I am coming up with new copy to put on my posts, and other people don't do that.

Other people are just reusing copy, and I don't do that.

Because I just like the involvement of it.

But it doesn't actually take me that long to set up a few draft posts and then post them throughout the day.

Yeah, I don't...

Would you keep making the videos if you knew that nobody would ever buy books from that?

I'm assuming that no one's...

Yeah, no one's buying my books from my TikTok posts.

Nobody.

It's very rare.

My sales have been so low recently that it's just like the most random encounters that I have with people that make them buy my books.

So I'm not really...

I'm not getting anything out of it other than my own enjoyment.

And it's because I have...

That's just like a mindset thing.

I have detached myself from like the importance of a post leading to a sale.

Maybe that's like people would say that's a mistake.

I should be trying to hook readers and tweaking my copy to make sure that every post leads to a sale.

But I'm not...

But you could also be thinking like, what's another way you could be making sales, right?

If you think like, oh, this media is never going to lead to this.

How am I going to spend my time?

So how do you...

And this is going to sound critical, but I'm genuinely interested.

How do you justify the time to yourself?

Like, how do you think this is worth my time?

When we know we're busy.

I'm just...

Or I'm on social media anyway.

I'm scrolling anyway.

I'm on my phone far too much.

But I do try not to use my phone, like, after 6 p.m.

when I'm at home.

So during the day, I feel like my phone is part of my job, like, my writing job.

So it's just, like, a part of my job.

I don't see it as a waste of time.

I see it as, so, like, I feel like there's benefit, even if I don't know right now if that's gonna pay off.

I just am, like, putting coins in a jar and hoping that one day that jar's gonna buy me a house.

That's it.

It's just, maybe it's just because I'm kind of optimistic and hopeful and live on a dream, like on a little cloud, like thinking my dreams are gonna come true.

But if you have to, you have to.

I think that's really interesting, because I think if you came across something where it was maybe slightly more likely to lead to just to kind of future success.

So say it was, you know what, actually, I really realized that if I wrote shorts, right, like if that's what I need to do, like I suddenly had lots of other people writing shorts, and I would just take me maybe 10 minutes later write some shorts and start putting them in, that would slowly build up my sales.

Do you think you would happily switch over the time you're spending to do it?

Or is there something about the creative, the creative aspect of creating social posts?

It's just the creative aspect.

I can't see why I'd stop when I love it.

To me, it's almost like, you know, if you're somebody who really likes to do art, or somebody who likes to draw in their free time, that's kind of how I'm viewing it, because I feel like my creative needs are being met by picking pictures and deciding, like, what dramatic things can I try and put with these pictures to have fun?

So even if I didn't think that these posts would ever lead to any sales, I just really am enjoying doing it.

To me, it's just a creative outlet.

I'm just doing something and enjoying it and hoping for something good to happen, but I never expect it to.

I don't know.

I have definitely had times of using, I think especially TikTok, because it's so kind of fun and creative.

There are posts you can make that are very, like the ones that I think if you look at Kate Hall, she'll she'll talk about like their posts where you're purely making them as a way to make sales or hoping to make sales.

But I think so much of TikTok is just like weird and creative and fun, that it gives you a good chance to be like, Oh, if I just want to make weird, creative, fun stuff, that's also going to, you know, be sent out and deliver.

But for me, I think if I am short of time, that just gets dropped.

Because I know that I'm I'm not formed habits like that.

And I'm outcome focused.

I'm thinking like, Oh, if I only have five hours today, and I've got five hours worth of things to do, am I going to maintain the extra half hour it would take me to do the TikToks?

No, because I would have to drop either half an hour of something else on my list or half an hour of sleep.

And like those aren't going to make top of the list.

But I do think there is definitely something in what you're saying about, like it's building up something for the long term.

And I sort of think it's not necessarily like putting money in a jar.

It feels almost like putting money in like a 10p machine or a 2p machine, you know?

Yeah, I love those.

Oh my god.

I don't think they necessarily have them elsewhere.

I hope they do because they're really fun.

But like you put coins in a slot and they sort of drop down to the bottom, and then they join a big moving bar of other coins, and they can push all the coins off the edge, and then all the coins get pushed off the edge into a like into your pops, basically.

And it's sort of like a slot machine, but like with a much more visual randomness.

So to me, that's how social media feels.

And like I love a 2p machine, a 10p machine.

They're fun, but I never expect to win.

And I wouldn't put in more than a few coins.

I'm just doing it for the fun alone.

And if I'm short of money, I would never put money in a 10p machine.

And this is how social media feels to me.

And I think, but I do think there's a big thing about like, you are sort of like putting things into a bank, because say you're, you know, you've got this new series, I think your your current situation is a great example.

Like you've got this series, it's the first series you're completing.

And hopefully you'll be doing some advertising soon, more people are finding you those people, you want them to have more places to find out more about, you want them to like be in your ecosystem.

And one place they'll do that is by joining a newsletter.

But another place is just like, they think, oh, well, I'll go and follow Sam on social media.

And then as soon as they do that, or they interact with the new videos, they get served more and more and more, because you have so much in your back catalog, they will keep getting served things by you.

Whereas if you only joined social media when you had got big, and you were seeing some success, they wouldn't be having all this kind of extra content served to them.

So it's almost like you're building up future ads for yourself, and future draws in to your web.

Yeah.

And I would say I am also, like you say, putting things on the back burner for things like boosting posts.

Like if I think that I've done a particularly good post on Instagram, and I look at it and think, oh, I could boost this for a couple of quid a day, and see where it gets me, I would happily do that, because I like boosting posts on Instagram.

So I am setting myself up for the opportunity to use what I've done for something else.

So it's helpful to have it there.

And yeah, I really just like looking at my own stuff.

I'm so like, it's like whenever I do a lip-synchy video or something, I will re-watch it.

It's like I re-listen to our podcasts because I like listening to myself talk.

I'm just so self-involved.

And he was like, I'm just listening to you.

I was like, I wasn't listening to me.

Yeah, I am my own biggest fan.

And I think that's okay.

Somebody has to.

Okay, I think then let's think about the situation where, say, I wanted to hire you as my social media manager, and you have to justify the cost, right?

So I will pay you money for your time, but you won't be able to come out and say, you want me to keep hiring you.

So you want me to see some sort of benefit to it.

What would you, how would you go about even thinking about that?

Like, how would you go about deciding what to do and where the benefit is gonna be?

I think it would depend on what your kind of like comp authors are doing.

So I do look at what my comp authors are doing, and I save Instagram posts into a folder as what I've called my authoring folder.

And I sometimes will like go through and recreate their standard posts that they do, because I know that other people have enjoyed those.

They like, if some of them get a lot of views, I'll think, oh, that's probably like a decent kind of post that other people might like.

So I think that I would say like, look at what your comps are doing, because you want people to look at your things and be able to fit it into whatever like their mental categorizing is.

So I would say to do that and then decide what route you'd like to go down.

Like I have only recently really found my vibe on social media, and it has taken me the last year to get to this point where I feel like I don't really think about what I have to post, because I know the tone of the images that I want to use, and I only save images into my folders that I think fit that tone, and I only use kind of copy and particular words, and also like really hit my X meets Y hard on a lot of my posts.

So I think just really drilling down to like what you want your, I don't want to say that aesthetic, but like what is your aesthetic?

Which I think is why we have these two things together is like, what's your like social media branding?

And I do think one thing that was definitely thinking about when preparing for this episode was, I don't think I've nailed my branding at all.

Like I think we talked about this ages ago, and it's so useful to revisit it.

I've like we had the kind of tagline of like, Oh, quintessentially British mysteries.

That isn't though, like me, that isn't my branding as an author.

That's very loose.

Like that's like, you kind of know vaguely what you're getting from the books.

Also, what does that really mean?

Yeah, that's a very subjective term.

And I think when I post, especially, and TikTok I think is a useful space to have explored because Cozy Authors are not on TikTok realistically.

You know, a lot of people are on, but they're not seeing particularly big numbers, sometimes paranormal because it tends to have a slightly younger audience.

But really Cozy Authors are not massively on TikTok because the Cozy audience isn't on there.

So it's kind of freed me up to do different things and to not worry too much about my branding and, and to be a little bit like kind of chaotic and overmapped with it in a way that I found fun.

But it definitely made me think like I don't have branding.

And looking at your posts, they are so like I could see you on and not know it was you and know it was you.

Right?

I could, I could, that's how strong the branding is.

And I think that's definitely a benefit to being more present on social media.

It forces you to really think about how are you presenting your brand as like a feeling as graphics, as text, as all those things together.

And I haven't nailed that down.

And I think I really vacillate between kind of like cute and quaint and like little country village.

And then kind of like quirky and weird and like full of cats and baking.

And it's like, I don't feel confident enough in like my author persona to present something and to present a consistent anything.

And so it leaves me just making like a very bland generic nothing, which I find really satisfying.

And that's what feels unauthentic and that's why I don't want to do it.

And that's why I wouldn't want to be posting every day on a Facebook group, because it would be like, here's this, and in my mind, it's like, here's this funny meme about like, oh, aren't we all like this?

It's like, we're not, and I don't know what you're like, you don't know what I'm like.

And that's what we, it's out to me like an issue of my own branding.

Yeah, it's a level of like your persona, because I have kind of abandoned my Facebook recently, because I mean, some of my Instagram posts go there automatically, but every time I go on Facebook, there's no interaction.

And maybe it's because I don't post on there, and trying to encourage anybody to kind of get involved.

But I'm just over Facebook a little bit, because it's just a lot of friends and family, so it's not beneficial to me whatsoever.

And also-

Less space for your genre.

Yes, less space for my genre.

And I also feel too on view for people in my life.

So the real, people that I know in real life who aren't particularly readers, but just support for the sake of supporting.

I struggle very much with who I am inside versus who people expect me to be outside.

I don't know if we talked about this last week.

Can you talk a bit more about that?

Okay, so yes.

So I struggle with what my families and some friends expectation of me is.

But it's not who I feel like I am when I'm on my own or on the Internet.

So if I'm posting on Facebook, I know that my family are going to see it.

And that immediately makes me just not want to, to be like my authentic self.

But on Instagram and TikTok, I'm not really like my authentic self there either, but I am like a version of my online self, which I have honed over many years because I have, I'm an Internet kid.

So I've grown up on the Internet and had many personas on the Internet.

And now I've found one that I feel is a nice enough mix of real me and this like higher version of myself.

That's like my future author, who is winning at life and living on a farm with surrounded by like loads of rescue animals.

So I have just found a place that I like to be, and a person or persona that I like to represent me.

And that might sound like, I think I used to worry that that may made me inauthentic, but I actually just think it's fun to act like that part of me.

Because everyone's got different versions of their personality.

Me, more than anyone, I'm like, this is where I go woo woo.

My birth chart is just like 90 percent Gemini.

I don't know what you mean by that, but I'm not gonna nod.

So I am basically like the biggest Gemini that there is, which means that I am very multifaceted.

How can you be less Gemini than a gemini?

Yeah, it's all very scientific, I'm sure.

But I just, I really resonate with the Gemini identity, which is somebody who has a lot of different personas.

And I used to really struggle with not, this is like deep diving into my psyche, but I used to struggle with not knowing who I was supposed to be, depending on who I was around.

And often, even now, I still find this, like if I see somebody that I've not seen for a long time, I get a little bit scared.

Like I don't know what our level of friendship was or what version of me they knew.

So I don't know how to act.

So I have like this mental condition, where I've got like too many personalities, but not officially diagnosed, but it's just that, just, I just have a lot of various shades of Sam.

And I have leaned into the one that feels the most comfortable to present to an online audience.

And I think maybe if you were to meet your readers in person, that's the one you would authentically be.

Yes, yeah.

That part of you.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that is what's maybe holding me back, is that like, we think to an extent, like, knowing that Cozy Mystery Readers are generally an older group.

So they're older than me.

The person I am, I'm imagining like who I am around, you know, a relative, an older relative that you go and visit.

And that is a version of me that is like, my like, sit politely on the sofa, answer their questions and like be very nice.

And like, that's, that's definitely a part of me.

Like, that is a significant part of me.

And you know, I might even be funny, right?

My family is northern, so we, you know, even the older relatives, you know, like a bit of like a sarcastic joking.

So that's the part of me I would be.

But I, it doesn't feel like a part of me that is very open, very wide.

It's like a very narrow part of me.

And that's the part of me that currently I really do present online.

It's like that very, like the politest version of me.

And on TikTok, I definitely felt more able because I think the audience is not there.

I'm kind of just like, here's a random group of people.

I'm able to just be a little bit more all over the place, but not really building any persona.

And I feel like I, when I think about other Cozy Mystery authors who I do feel really do very well, you know, in social media, they seem incredibly authentic.

And they seem like they're people who are, they're generally a bit older already themselves.

So maybe they're feeling less of that generation, like generational politeness.

And they're people who that I imagine if you met them as a reader, they are genuinely like that.

Like they are quite like, you know, southern or Midwest.

And you know, they're someone who has like a very friendly persona.

And I'm sure if you meet them, you know, I've like I've met some of them as a writer.

There's a different aspect of personality that the readers don't necessarily see, but it is authentically who they are with that type of person.

And the person I authentically am with that type of person is quite buttoned up.

And so then it feels like how can I find a way to be engaging and open with an audience who I'm naturally quite closed down with.

And that just then feels like, oh, gosh, that feels really hard to figure out.

So I will not do it.

Or I will easily kind of it's a cognitive dissonance, right?

So that just makes me kind of it's really, it's an extra bit of work I have to do.

Yeah, that makes me think if there's any barrier, I'll drop it.

Yeah, I know, I understand that 100% because that's exactly how I felt even like towards the end of last year, where I felt like every time I went online and posted things, I was being like overly confident or just overly forceful in my attempts to like convince people to that maybe they want to read the book.

And maybe it's just because I've been interacting with more people who are fans of like my comp titles and things.

I've just seen a place where I can slot in.

And that place that I've slotted in feels like it was like Sam shaped.

But I had looked for it and I've been looking for it for a while.

And it is just thankfully like the timing was just right.

And I just I just found that space.

But I'm also my like my genre obviously young adult is teenagers, but it does have a very broad readership.

And I would say like people up to my age and older are still reading young adults and loving it.

And so I do have far more scope to be this version of myself because I can be like down with the kids, you know, what up fellow kids.

I'm wearing a hoodie and I've got baggy jeans on, you know, just back to my nineties self.

But I do also like I do fit into the older crowd of older people who read young adult books.

So I'm like, I am within my genre.

With you, I actually think that you're missing a trick because you are writing younger sleuths, like of your own age.

So maybe-

What do you think all the other social media people that I think of as being very successful in life are also doing?

Yes, but you are authentically that age.

I'm so young.

Yeah, you're so young.

And you could be out solving.

40 years young.

Yeah, you could be.

There's nothing stopping you from posting as your characters.

If that helps you get into that mindset.

I mean, you are those characters, you wrote them, so they do exist within you.

So if all you need to do to try and find some sort of fun, authenticness about posting, you could just think like, what's a great post from the perspective of the main character, like spotting possible crimes or murders in places that they don't exist.

So you do that anyway.

I was in a sauna and we straight, like when we first conversation with a stranger, I sat next to us about murdering people in a sauna.

Yeah.

Because we were talking about books and I was talking about How to Kill Your Family, the Bellamaki book, which I really like, which does have a scene in which someone kills someone in a sauna, and it made me feel a bit paranoid.

Right.

So instantly that's a social media post, is both a thing about your life, something that's murdery and also a book rec.

Like so you actually do have these things.

It's just training your brain to kind of line up with like what you're doing and how you could turn that into something fun.

Because that is a good part.

I think the really hard thing about social media is like, because when you get excited, you get so little engagement, you don't have a sense of what is a good post and what's a bad post.

And I think, to an extent, you have to post often in order to get that feedback from yourself, to get that feedback of like, Oh, this, you know, looking back, I'm not as drawn to those ones.

And I also I think it's important to look back at your old posts.

And I think it's big benefit.

So yeah, I think, if I can just find things that feel authentic to me, because I think even posting about a sauna, I think that's it.

I think I just don't engage enough of myself in there because I feel a bit like, again, I'm just feeling very shut down.

Like I would have posted about the sauna, but as part of like, Oh, I had a really lovely weekend, like you would like writing to an older one.

I'd say like, I had a lovely weekend, I went to a sauna, I went to the garden center.

It was so relaxing.

No, no, no.

Yeah, okay.

I think that when you are an author who has a readership that's very involved in you already, I used to do because I used to do the same thing.

And when I scroll back through my Instagram, like my older stuff, I was definitely talking to my audience in the wrong way.

And I was doing that, like the personal posts, like this is what I've done this weekend.

Here's a photo dump.

And it's that doesn't do anything.

If you haven't got the people there who want to talk to you about it and who are interested.

So I think that it is more interesting and more fun.

And it actually takes some pressure away.

If every single post is just about one thing, and that is to draw attention to your books.

And that's it.

And it doesn't have to be inauthentic because you can post about what you're doing in your life and how it could be a murder.

How it could tie into your books.

And that's your personality.

It's humorous and your books aren't dry.

They're very witty.

Your characters are very witty.

So that does tie in with you and who you are.

And it's authentic and it's just something fun.

But I would say that the best thing that I did when I started posting at the start of this year is I tried to keep consistent with how it looks, like with the branding stuff.

If I post a video of myself writing, I'll put a particularly dark filter on it because I've started posting a lot more darker images.

So you can change themes whenever you want.

But I would say, just to start with, maybe pick a filter that you want to use that keeps everything looking a particular way.

And you'd like the Taylor Swift filter.

Pick an era.

Be in your murder mystery era.

Yeah.

I think that's the benefit of not having a big following.

So far as that you can just try stuff like a bunch of like, that didn't feel right.

Let me try something else.

I think that is so helpful because one of the things I find really difficult is when you're looking at people who are already successful, so you look at like, how are you cop posters that are doing well?

They are often doing things like posting about their lives.

And it's like, but they have a big readership who really cares about their life, who wants to know the next installment of like, Oh, what happened with your kids basketball game, right?

And if I post about my, I don't have a kid, post about my kids basketball game, you'd be like, why would I want to scroll past?

Absolutely don't care about that.

But if someone knows like has followed you for years, they know that your kid really wanted to get into the basketball team, they would ask you the question of like, what's, how did the basketball team do?

And, you know, how would the game go?

They're more connected in a different way.

And I couldn't replicate that.

And I have really struggled to figure out like, what's between posting very bland, not personal things and like sharing as if they're my friends.

Yeah, and I've really struggled.

I think, I do think like trying to, my next goal should be trying to find my branding.

And like figuring out like, oh, do I want to be, because I'm not, who am I going to put off?

Like the half thousand people that ever see my posts on Facebook, fine, say they're put off me from seeing those posts next 10 months.

But maybe it builds up.

Yeah, and I would rather find a personal voice and a personal brand that puts off some people.

That's fine as long as it's authentic to my books.

Rather than just like, keep, sorry, I've lost my headphones because my cat's on me, I'm watching some strokes.

Rather than kind of keep fluttering on the edge of doing nothing.

Yeah.

And I'm going to say, I'll give you two quick ones if you want to feel like you're doing stuff and it's engaging.

Is if you want to write a life update, put it in your stories because people who watch your stories are more, I think they're more tuned in, more interested to see.

So like I will always, if I go past somebody's story and they've written an update, I don't care who it is, I'm going to read that because I'm in the stories.

It's a completely different mindset.

And I will like stories, not fiction stories.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, sorry.

Instagram stories.

So if you want to do little writing updates or life updates, like weekend updates, throw it in your stories.

I always find that I get far more interaction that way.

And if you want to get more interaction on a post, post a selfie, because I can't follow you.

Because I'm so attractive.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah, because you're obviously like stunning and everyone wants to see it.

But even though it annoys me, I know if I'm feeling like, I just wish people would interact with my social media more.

I go on Instagram and I post a selfie and I watch as the likes and the comments roll in, because people can't resist.

Particularly, yeah, I know it is, I really am cursed with this, but any kind of new hair, I will always post it as a selfie and then just sit back and feel great that everyone's like, oh, I love your hair.

So cute, so curly.

I'm like, thanks guys.

You haven't looked at a single post before after this one, but never mind.

So that's like a nice little vanity thing.

If you want to feel good about yourself, post a selfie and if you want to give life updates, put them in your Instagram stories.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then I think you've had such good advice for this.

I think it's so interesting to talk to someone who has a really different attitude to social media and who has a really different process of exploring with it.

I think better than talking to somebody who is kind of similar to me.

Sometimes you get friends that you commiserate with and be like, oh, it's awful, isn't it?

Yeah, it's awful.

I always find it endlessly useful to talk to you about this because we come from such different perspectives and not necessarily that either of us are social media experts.

We're both just kind of having different questions and that I think is incredibly useful.

Do you have any things that you are still thinking about with your social media that you are wanting to still work on?

I guess just knowing when to post about which projects.

So I've currently got, obviously, in my book series is coming to an end.

So I'm trying to talk more about this last book that's coming out, but it's the third book in the series.

So I'm really struggling to know the best way to talk about it, and how often I should be mentioning the full series or just this one book.

So I do really struggle with that aspect of it.

And also knowing when to talk about the next book that's coming out, because I did start teasing that at the start of this year.

And I'm really excited.

And I know a lot of people are excited about that book, but trying to figure out when to start talking.

It is on pre-order, yes.

Everyone go pre-order it, please.

It's called The Moon is a Dog.

Yeah, so it's trying to just figure out the balance of, we've talked about this before loads, of how often you talk about your backlist, how often you talk about your current, and how often you talk about your next book.

That's where I'm still struggling, but I think I'm getting better at it, but I still know that I've got a lot of roads to, with figuring that kind of thing out.

I'm fine with it.

I'll figure it out.

I definitely find it, the authors that I interact with a lot, they often have to talk about one book at a time, and it feels impactful.

I think as an author, I think, oh, that's going to feel really repetitive, but actually it feels like the book is everywhere, even if it's just the author posting about it, then it keeps kind of, it overrides your sort of instinct to ignore.

He might, oh, you know, I'll look at it today.

Even if it's the fifth time I've seen it, I'm like, oh, okay, I've looked at it.

And then maybe the next time you think, what is that book about?

And that might even be like five times later.

And I think there's such a transient about social media that we don't feel the same way as if somebody like knocks on your door every five minutes, like telling you about something, it doesn't feel the same way.

And you know that to an extent, you're in control of your algorithm.

So you are choosing to see it more.

It's not like the author is posting about it, because I often get people who, if I interact with them enough, I get served posts from, especially on TikTok from months ago.

And it's not like the author is posting about it all the time.

It's like, oh, it's me liking them.

So the algorithm is saying, look at this more.

And so it never feels like it's the author overwhelming you.

It feels like, wow, I must really like this.

I should read it.

I think that's probably it, is that I still struggle with that mentality of like, excuse me, I don't mean to bother you, but can you look over here?

Like I still struggle with that kind of little mouse voice, like being like, oh, just look at me here.

So that is a mentality thing that I am trying to push through.

I want to scream and shout and let it all out about my books.

And maybe this week coming up, I will just consistently post about the same book three times a day and not try to convince them to go back to book one.

It's just all about book three.

I'm going to say the opposite.

Because I think you want to get people in at book one.

Yeah.

It's like I've got a book two out this week, next week, which I am behind on promoting.

I really didn't have the bandwidth to promote it.

I could have done more, but also I think I really want to pay attention to the idea of hands-off launches.

And I think Helen Shura talks about it.

I think Alana Johnson talks about it.

I think a book two, I could have gone for a bigger launch, but actually because I'm doing one, two, and three rapid, I want to do one as big, two could be smaller, and then it gives me energy to do three as big.

And even if I were posting a fair bit about book two, there's no point reading it without reading book one, even though they're standalone.

I want people to read one, two, and three because I want to get that read through.

So if I'm posting about book two, I was thinking about this evening about what I'm going to post about book two.

It's going to be every book two post will mention book one.

So it might be like, have you read book one?

Yeah, book two is out.

I might do some posts that are just here's book two, but maybe second slide would be, haven't started series yet, here's book one.

Because especially because we usually like series, they care that it's a series.

And book three in this series doesn't feel the same as focusing on, as the series completes, here's book one.

Yeah, it does feel difficult.

And as much as I love the cover that I revealed, I do feel like it's fallen on deaf ears.

So maybe, yeah, maybe actually this week, I will just talk about book one for a whole week and not mention book three and see if that gets any kind of different interaction.

So I'm gonna write that down so I don't forget.

Only book one.

See, I'm open to trying things and taking advice.

This is the way.

Yeah.

And I think things like book one in a soon to be completed series, that creates a certain urgency of like, oh, I want to get on book one before the series is kind of over.

And because I think book three feels like you've missed the boat.

Yeah.

Whereas you saw a lot of posts when I think it's on X Storm, you know, was coming out like a lot of posts about going back to the beginning and people who are just getting started in the series like, oh, am I too late?

I hope I'm not too late.

I'm going to start the beginning series where I can get to book three or four in time.

I feel like I am too late.

I feel like I've missed that series and I need to get on it.

But also, I don't have the time for that.

I don't have the time.

I'm also don't know if I get into dragons, will I get out of dragons?

I love dragons so much that I don't let myself read about dragons.

That's the thing.

If I start, then every book will and I can't.

I can't.

I'm just going to.

I just can't.

I love it too much.

I can't let it become an actual obsession.

Okay.

That is a good series.

Like it's a good holiday series.

Like it's one not to bring into your real life.

It's one you want to have a good drink of time to read.

So I definitely will read at some points, but I don't feel the urgency to read it because it's not my genre.

I don't feel any sense of like, oh, must read that.

Whereas I think if it is your genre, you can see people really felt like a sense of I want to be in the moment.

Yeah.

So I think either posting about book one or really focusing on like soon to be complete series.

Yeah.

Yes, I think I will do that.

Are you going to make any promises for this week's social media?

That is interesting.

I think we've had really useful chat, and I think I want to have a bit of time to think about, and to really make sure I'm setting myself up for success.

Because I know I'm such a like, or nothing person that I don't want to just be like, oh, I'll just try a few posts.

Like I want to make sure I'm having a thought about it.

I'm like, okay, I'm going to make a plan for the next month.

And I want to make that commitment to myself.

I'm going to make a plan for the next month to do X.

So I definitely want my next week to have got a plan in place, if not started already, but I don't want to just jump in because I'm not a jump in person.

If I jump in, jump right back out again, like as soon as it's not fun.

And I just remembered something that I was going to talk about, but I haven't had time to, but I will just say this at the end is that, I signed up for a Buffer account at the start of the year and then didn't use it because I was just like, just posting.

A Buffer is like you can pre-schedule posts.

You can pre-schedule posts, but you can also do what I like to do, which I used to use Trello for, but I've not logged in to my Trello for a while.

So I'm just switching apps here.

It's just make loads of ideas for posts, but there is an AI function on Buffer, which will help you come up with ideas for posts.

So I've looked into a few of those, but I've also just gone through yesterday in my admin day, I actually went through and made about 20 to 25 post ideas that I wanted to do, which means I have all of these things that I can just go into, add an image, add text, and then bash it out.

So that's, I feel like I'm going to try and do that this week as well, just to see if it helps me stay off the scrolling part of Instagram, specifically, I don't scroll on TikTok, but Instagram specifically.

We'll see.

Okay, it's fantastic.

Sounds like a great place to leave the discussion.

I can imagine us coming back to this again soon, but I think it was really good to come back to it with maybe slightly more like cynical jaded eyes.

Like how have I tried?

How have I changed?

Yeah, yeah, rather than like, oh, I'm going to be doing all the things and feeling really optimistic.

Here's my brand.

Yeah, being a bit more reflective based on previous processes.

That was a really useful chat.

Hopefully it was useful for other people to listen to as well.

And next week, though, we are not doing a topic revisit.

We do a completely new topic.

We're talking about switching genres, which we're not switching genres.

So don't get worried about that.

I think we had a conversation about something sort of similar about like genre analysis in the Cozy Mystery Clubhouse.

And it was really, really useful as a way just to kind of rethink your own genre and make sure you're looking at it.

And it was a useful way to think about writing to market.

So yeah, do you have any initial thoughts on that?

Yeah, I don't have the time to switch genres even if I wanted to.

But I definitely have genres that I would if I had all the time in the world, there are definitely genres I'd love to try and get into.

And I think that it will be a fun excuse to come up with a list of what I would research if I wanted to do that.

Like where would I look?

Where could I see myself in a market without actually having to go through with it?

Yeah, because I think looking at that can really help you think, actually am I missing any tricks in my current genre?

Yeah.

And also maybe you will decide to change genre.

Who knows?

You said you're very flexible.

You might just make a change of composition and be like, you know what, actually, I'm going to become a rap singer.

I'm in.

No, I'm not.

No.

But, but maybe.

But maybe.

Yeah, I think that will be really useful just as like a thought experiment that helps us really understand writing to market from a different perspective.

I think this is a really useful kind of set of conversations we've had recently.

It's just like looking at topics from different perspectives.

And I think next week will be a useful one too.

So thank you, everyone, for listening this week, even to our very long initial chat.

Hopefully that was useful to hear about how exhaustion is being pulled back from the brink, and we maybe won't die of tiredness, fingers crossed.

And yes, thank you so much for joining us.

Do all the things, like and subscribe, and tell our friends about us.

You know, send love, join the Discord.

It is lovely to be joined by you all.

And we will see you next week.

Goodbye.

Goodbye.

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